Perhaps the rules or arithmetic are not so arbitrary. — Marchesk

Hmmm. Now where did we come up with a number system base 10?

The preference for consistency is one such rule. — Banno

Are my two axioms inconsistent? :roll:

What do you think? Can you demonstrate their consistency?

No, no, no ......! You have challenged my axioms. The ball is in your court! :nerd:

The contention here is that this game has similarities to mathematics, in that the playful creation of rules is at the core of both. — Banno

So let's try this out. I as ruler of the nearby city demand you pay a tax. I have my soldiers take three oxen out of your six. You complain that this only leaves three oxen to plow the fields. My official reply is that six minus three is five, by decree. I have only removed one of your oxen.

For some reason, that system doesn't last and is replaced by the 6 - 3 = 3 one we have today.

the golden ratio is one of the patterns that we found. Just like counting and stuff. Some patters are useful.

yep. Simple. 3+3=6. A pattern that is useful.

A pattern that is useful. — Banno

Right, so is math about useful patterns, or about making up arbitrary games, like Chess and Go are made-up games with well defined rules that allow for interesting patterns?

Or maybe both.

same thing.

ぶという

he patterns are forms, they are not useful, they are expressions in the extension of matter and energy.
The forms are dynamic, and they have dependence of ....time. — armonie

Shades of Heraclitus?

行為です。

Nu. They are just patterns. No need for any additional metaphysics.

That’s part of the point of this approach.

I didn’t realize I was creating an inconsistency, — Pfhorrest

I don't mind your inconsistency. It is like the food I cook for my children... it has a certain uncertain flavour peppered with a consistency of indescribable inconsistency.

At least we are consistent about this.

Nu. They are just patterns. No need for any additional metaphysics.

That’s part of the point of this approach. — Banno

So, the world-stuff creates patterns that we sometimes find useful and turn into mathematics and physics.

So, the world-stuff creates patterns that we sometimes find useful and turn into mathematics and physics. — Marchesk

That says more about the world than is needed.

Stuff does stuff. We make patterns. Sometimes we read patterns into what the stuff is doing.

Less metaphysics. .

This is boring.

The sum of any two integers is zero. — John Gill

What are 'integers' in your game? The way integers are usually defined/constructed, they come with addition already baked in.

Let's go back to their origins. How did humans come up with arithmetic? Probably when it became useful to track transactions and taxation. And that's not arbitrary. — Marchesk

Thats why I proposed the rule that Banno hand over 50% of his dough. I thought we should start where the ancients did when the rules were meant to be applicable in the world.

Simple. 3+3=6. A pattern that is useful. — Banno

Useful for what? Why is a pattern useful?

Fun, useful, not silly: do you discover these things or do you declare them?

And if you discover what's not silly, where was it before you found it?

Merry Christmas! :sparkle:

I hereby revoke my two axioms and my original frivolous statement about integers.

Happy Holidays! :nerd:

Ah, makes sense. I thought you were just pulling his leg.

do you discover these things or do you declare them? — frank

I think I have to pay that.

SO maths is made up, and we find - "discover" - ways to use it.

Useful for what? Why is a pattern useful? — Harry Hindu

Whatever you like.

Sometimes we impose.

maths is made up, and we find - "discover" - ways to use it. — Banno

Could be.

Simple. 3+3=6. A pattern that is useful.
— Banno
Useful for what? Why is a pattern useful? — Harry Hindu

Whatever you like.

Sometimes we impose. — Banno

How is 3+3=6 useful for knowing how much of my income the government wants? If the government wants 50% of my income, do I just write 50% on a sheet of paper and then give it to the government? Are we just writing scribbles with arbitrary rules? If so, then why isn't the government content with a sheet of paper with the scribbles 50% on it? What is 50% OF something? What does the "of" mean?

SO maths is made up, and we find - "discover" - ways to use it. — Banno

The symbols are made up, but what they refer to isn't.

meh.

Rule 1: The sum of any two integers is 0.
a+b=0
Theorem 1: Any two integers are the opposite of each other
a=-b

My rule:
There is only one integer, 0.

All rules prior to this post are not to be followed after this post.

All posts ought to follow the rule: share your favorite (philosopher, artist, food, or quote)

Moliere's rule has been abolished by holionino decree. All rules from before apply.