To call this a ‘value system’ is a reduction of what it means to relate to possibility. Their current behaviour is included in everything they can possibly be. The way I’ve worded it does, however, suggest that the ‘moral judgement’ is not included - it is, but is such a minor factor in ‘what matters’ that its ‘relative value’ is comparatively less than that of ‘everything they can possibly be’.
Think about it in relation to drawing a table: The 3D table is much more than what I can reproduce in even a skilful rendering of a 2D image. If you were not aware that the 2D shape represented a 3D object that existed, then you would see only the 2D shape, and not the table. Likewise, if you were not aware that my expression of 5D value represents 6D meaning, then you would understand it only as 5D value. Language is necessarily a 5D structural relation - it can represent meaning in the same way that the 2D image can represent the 3D table, but the representation is only one aspect of the total information.
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Options — Possibility
I disagree. We each value differently and you can value possibilities the same as you can value immediately actualities. Their current behavior is included yes, but everything they can possibly be is not included in their current behavior. Thus you, the wise parent value the possibility, see it as the goodness in them that lets you overlook their current, typically self absorbed behavior. You value, morally value, their potential, and thus you love them in spite of their being, at the moment, less than model citizens of the world.
In all your arguments for your love of your children you are stating exactly why you value them, and I assert that is an expression of your morality. You are not a hedonist annoyed that they interfere with your immediate pleasures. Your ethics looks forward beyond such immediate gratification to see the virtue in your children as what they can (especially with your guidance) become. It is still an actualization of your personal moral values.
Remember that my position is that morality is a personal thing, an individual's value system. You express yours as you express the love of your children as likewise you express your love of all whom you grace with that emotion, and as I posit, with that moral judgement. — jambaugh
but I disagree wholeheartedly that we cannot value other than morally — Possibility
I think you are hitting the nail on the head here at the end in that the fundamental disagreement between us is here where you say:
but I disagree wholeheartedly that we cannot value other than morally
— Possibility
The format here is pretty straightforward. I've made a universally qualified claim, you assert an existential counter example. So now I ask for that example. Give me some examples of values you personally hold which have no moral basis?
Mind you, we may find our disagreement is fundamentally semantic or definitional. I am, ultimately defining morality to be our value system so by my cooked definition I win the literal debate. The big question is whether there is validity and utility in my definition. I think it is a relevant question in this era where we are stepping back from authoritarian ethics. If morality is not defined by the church or the state or the dude with the biggest baseball bat, then what? — jambaugh
. There may well be pureness in actualization of love but it is also, quite often impure. The mother who backhands her child whom she indeed loves is an example. In such a typical scenario that parent has held onto the delusion that her love is "pure" and thereby turned a blind eye to building resentments and anger which thus grow to a point where they trigger her.Love is pure relation — Possibility
The way I see it, you’re attempting to structure ALL value relations using a specifically moral valuing system, and finding it insufficient for an accurate understanding of reality as we experience it. That’s to be expected. We use many different value systems in our understanding of reality. Understanding the dimensional relation of potentiality is a matter of understanding how these different value systems relate to our experiences and to each other - and recognising that there is no single value system ‘to rule them all’. — Possibility
Our morality evolved from and still encompasses the survival/propagation ethic of our animal past. — jambaugh
asserted that "Love is a moral judgement" which drew some responses — jambaugh
I recognise that we each have an individual structure of value systems, but I disagree wholeheartedly that we cannot value other than morally (and I’ve had a similar discussion about this in relation to logical evaluation). Moral is, by definition, related to behaviour, so we can only value morally what relates to behaviour, although by extension we also have a tendency to morally value events (and people understood as events). Moral value is also often a reduction of value information to a binary system: good/virtuous or bad/evil. — Possibility
I tell young people, where possible, always have a positive spirit. — 3017amen
Darwinian rationalism does not constitute a philosophy. The point about love is that it has to be its own rationale - as soon as it serves something other than love, then it ain't love. — Wayfarer
The point about love is that it has to be its own rationale — Wayfarer
I'm not sure what you mean by
Love is pure relation
— Possibility
. There may well be pureness in actualization of love but it is also, quite often impure. The mother who backhands her child whom she indeed loves is an example. In such a typical scenario that parent has held onto the delusion that her love is "pure" and thereby turned a blind eye to building resentments and anger which thus grow to a point where they trigger her. — jambaugh
one may take the ideal of pure love so to heart that one may amplify self critique into self loathing and be unable to accept love in any form. My first girlfriend had this in spades. I presume she grew past it as she's now (happily so I presume) married. I only wish I'd not be so immature at the time to have dealt with it better. I only knew that "my love was pure" and its very existence was all that mattered. Now after several decades I recognize that that love, that value, is only meaningful as it places value on my actions. If I fail to act it becomes meaningless. — jambaugh
I think your definition of "moral" is incorrect. Morality is concerned with what is good and bad. And since it extends into judging thinking in this way, and thinking is not properly "behaviour", but related to behaviour, morality has a greater extent than what you claim. — Metaphysician Undercover
This casts doubt on your claim "I disagree wholeheartedly that we cannot value other than morally". Evaluating is an act of thinking, and acts of thinking may be judged as good or bad in relation to moral ethics. Morally "good" thinking will produce good value judgements, and bad thinking produces bad value judgements. If you think that there are value judgements which themselves can be judged as correct or incorrect, without reference to moral principles then the challenge is yours, to demonstrate these. Before you proceed, consider that correctness and incorrectness in value judgements is normative. — Metaphysician Undercover
Value (noun):
1. The importance, worth or usefulness of something.
2. Principles or standards of behaviour; one’s judgement of what is important in life.
3. The numerical amount denoted by an algebraic term; a magnitude, quantity or number.
4. The relative duration of a sound, signified by a (musical) note.
5. The meaning of a word or other linguistic unit.
6. The relative degree of lightness or darkness of a particular colour. — Possibility
Value (verb): to consider something to be important or beneficial. — Possibility
Something I've long found interesting to contemplate and never come to an adequate resolution on is the relationship of love to fear and hate. I traditionally thought of hate as the opposite of love, such that when I first heard fear juxtaposed as its opposite, back before I studied any philosophy, I thought that sounded really weird. But after studying some philosophy and learning the Greek roots "phobia" and "philia", fear seemed like a natural opposite to love; but so did hate, still. I wondered, does that make hate a kind of fear, or vice versa? Are they maybe opposite love on orthogonal axes?
The conclusion I came to is that fear is a repulsive feeling (pushing away from something that seems bad) in relation to an object that is more powerful than yourself (so repelling it moves you away from it), while hate is the same kind of thing but in relation to an object that is less powerful than yourself (so repelling it moves it away from you).
That made me think that there should be something that bears the same relationship to love. Love is an attractive feeling (pulling toward something that seems good), but in relation to an object that is more powerful than yourself, or less? And either way, what is the other? One thing is wanting to go to someone or something else, the other is wanting to bring that thing or person to you. Are those both "love"? Are there terms to differentiate them? — Pfhorrest
Morality does not judge thinking, but is concerned with the actions that follow thinking; with what is good or bad behaviour — Possibility
I have yet to come across a definition of ‘moral’ or ‘morality’ that does not mention behaviour, customs or actions, so I stand by my definition. — Possibility
Apart from the fact that I haven’t asserted any claim but expressed a disagreement, you’re referring to value and value judgements as if they’re the same thing. They’re not. I’ve already addressed the various types of value that have nothing to do with moral principles:
Value (noun):
1. The importance, worth or usefulness of something.
2. Principles or standards of behaviour; one’s judgement of what is important in life.
3. The numerical amount denoted by an algebraic term; a magnitude, quantity or number.
4. The relative duration of a sound, signified by a (musical) note.
5. The meaning of a word or other linguistic unit.
6. The relative degree of lightness or darkness of a particular colour. — Possibility
Something doesn’t have to be judged morally ‘good’ or ‘bad’ to be considered important or beneficial, so I maintain my opinion that we can value other than morally. — Possibility
Yes we do pass moral judgement on thinking. Take a look at the ten commandments for example, half of them are concerned with thinking; don't take the Lord's name in vain, honour, and don't covet. And if you read Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics, you'll see that he names "contemplation" as the highest virtue, this makes thinking itself an act. — Metaphysician Undercover
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