To TheMadFool
I can accept the notion that good leaders do not really exist in an eternal state, therefore when interpreting the following statement take good as meaning as good as possible for leadership.
On your statement that we should like good leaders because they are dedicated to our welfare, are you implying that individuals can identify intuitively if a candidate for some kind of office is good for it? People can easily be deluded and not realise that one man is concerned about welfare and another is not. Of course I think the best criticism here is that I would need evidence for this statement. — Aristocles
pseudo-technical garbage — Isaac
Coq is a formal proof management system. It provides a formal language to write mathematical definitions, executable algorithms and theorems together with an environment for semi-interactive development of machine-checked proofs. Typical applications include the certification of properties of programming languages (e.g. the CompCert compiler certification project, the Verified Software Toolchain for verification of C programs, or the Iris framework for concurrent separation logic), the formalization of mathematics (e.g. the full formalization of the Feit-Thompson theorem, or homotopy type theory), and teaching. — Mission statement of the Coq proof assistant
its not possible to personally verify either of the rival claims (which is what I'd already said) — Isaac
Sun Pharmaceuticals is the largest pharmaceutical company from India and the fifth largest specialty generic company in the world. It has capabilities across dosage forms like injectables, sprays, ointments, creams, liquids, tablets and capsules. Its businesses include producing generics, branded generics, speciality, over the counter (OTC) products, anti-retrovirals (ARVs), Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients (APIs) and intermediates in the full range of dosage forms. It also produces specialty APIs. US formulations contributed the most to company’s US$ 4 billion sales in FY18 with a contribution of 34 per cent, followed by India branded formulations at 31 per cent. — IBEF record for Sun Pharmaceuticals in Uttar Pradesh, India
What of the idea of a true leader? Have you ever encountered anyone that fits the description? There must be a couple of such people out there somewhere. — TheMadFool
What would there be wrong with e.g. Coq? — alcontali
IBEF record for Sun Pharmaceuticals — alcontali
double check in how many different countries their Methimez product has been certified for local distribution. — alcontali
Each of these certifications will have a laboratory reports available. — alcontali
What makes you believe that the paperwork for Tapazole and/or Northyx would indicate that these branded alternatives would be safer to use than Methimez (the Indian generic)? — alcontali
we would need to dig up all the paperwork, scrutinize it thoroughly, and discover the proper procedure to verify it, while doing that. — alcontali
It's a tool for mathematical theorms. Hence it is pseudo-technical to suggest it could apply outside of mathematics. Unless someone in a technical field has made that connection. — Isaac
Whom you'd have to trust to be providing you with the correct information. — Isaac
What is methimazole? Methimazole prevents the thyroid gland from producing too much thyroid hormone. Methimazole is used to treat hyperthyroidism (overactive thyroid). It is also used before thyroid surgery or radioactive iodine treatment. — drugs.com on methimazole
Where you'd have to trust the certification system. ... Whose processes and integrity you'd have to take on trust. — Isaac
What I objected to is your demented anti-western bias making out that Indian companies are going to be any better than the Western ones. — Isaac
If Western companies are bumping up prices by some illicit means, then the Indian company is probably cutting prices by some equally illicit means. — Isaac
Regulatory capture (also client politics) is a corruption of authority that occurs when a political entity, policymaker, or regulatory agency is co-opted to serve the commercial, ideological, or political interests of a minor constituency, such as a particular geographic area, industry, profession, or ideological group[1].[2] When regulatory capture occurs, a special interest is prioritized over the general interests of the public, leading to a net loss for society. — Wikipedia on regulatory capture
FDA Depends on Industry Funding; Money Comes with 'Strings Attached'. The system at the FDA is 'unique in the degree to which industry sets the terms of the agenda,' said Daniel Carpenter, a Harvard professor of government who has published work on the FDA and on 'regulatory capture,' a process by which special interests gain influence over their regulators. — Project On Government Oversight on Regulatory Capture of FDA
We cannot do that without trust. You're acting as if we can eliminate empirical data somehow and somehow derive knowledge without it. Somewhere along the line we'd have to include empirical data the gathering of which we were not personally involved in. — Isaac
I for one would rather trust what an experienced lab technician said happened than what I think I saw. — Isaac
In 2007, it paid out one of the largest fines ever levied against a pharmaceutical firm for mislabeling its product OxyContin, and three executives were found guilty of criminal charges.[3][4] — Wikipedia on Purdue Pharma
Opioid Crisis. The Nation is in the midst of an unprecedented opioid epidemic. More than 130 people a day die from opioid-related drug overdoses. — USA/HRSA administration on opioid crisis
It depends on whether you believe that this information is in doubt. It certainly could be. — alcontali
I have never said that they would be "better". In my experience, however, they certainly tend to be cheaper. — alcontali
Bumping up the price in the North American market is a known process. — alcontali
The problem is really not about the small guy or about lab technicians. The problem is about how the pharma oligarchy manages to write the laws and then contort their application, while killing an increasingly large number of their customers in the process. — alcontali
Yes, but to advocate them, you need to trust that they are at least not worse, ie that no corners have been cut in order to secure that lower price. How can you possibly know that? Lowering the price by using lower quality materials, quality and safety checks, and worse manufacturing techniques is also a known process, so I don't see where this gets you so far as choosing between the two is concerned. — Isaac
'Profiteering'. With some drugs costing upwards of $100,000 for a full course, and with the cost of manufacturing just a tiny fraction of this, it's not hard to see why. — BBC News on cost of manufacturing in pharma
Drug companies justify the high prices they charge by arguing that their research and development (R&D) costs are huge. ... But as the table below shows, drug companies spend far more on marketing drugs - in some cases twice as much - than on developing them. ... Big pharma companies also say they only have a limited time in which to make profits. — BBC News on pharma manufacturing cost
But drug companies have been accused of, and admitted to, far worse. Until recently, paying bribes to doctors to prescribe their drugs was commonplace at big pharmas, although the practice is now generally frowned upon and illegal in many places. GSK was fined $490m in China in September for bribery and has been accused of similar practices in Poland and the Middle East. Indeed a recent study found that doctors in the US receiving payments from pharma companies were twice as likely to prescribe their drugs. Drug companies have also been accused of colluding with chemists to overcharge for their medicines. They have also been found guilty of mis-branding and wrongly promoting various drugs. — BBC News on Big Pharma bribery
I'm talking about where the problem with any alternative might lie. Companies producing cheap knock-offs are motivated by exactly the same greed as the big companies. — Isaac
They have exactly the same ability to extort and manipulate laws (albeit more likely with bribes than lobbying). — Isaac
It's not your assessment of the problem I take issue with, it's your assessment of the solution. — Isaac
The cost of producing drugs is not in manufacturing: — alcontali
Sun Pharma in Uttar Pradesh does not have the same stronghold on the American FDA as e.g. Merck or Johnson & Johnson. It simply does not work like that. — alcontali
to proceed by purchasing online an Asian generic version of the drug, typically from the Indian subcontinent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) which seem to specialize in keeping afloat an alternative production of generics. — alcontali
If they're offering the thing cheaper it's because they're not paying for something the more expensive companies are paying for. To conclude that they're worth going for, you need to know what that something is and be sure you can do without it. — Isaac
To know that you have to trust somebody who is an expert in the field telling you what that thing is. — Isaac
I wouldn't trust some random Internet sale with my health. That would be borderline lunacy. — Isaac
How do I even know the pill contains anything but sugar? — Isaac
How do I know adverse reactions will be properly accounted? — Isaac
Lenin and Hitler come to mind in recent political history. Their goals were wrong, but boy they could lead. — god must be atheist
I wonder though how this fits into what I was saying about needing schools for leaders. Is it possible to make someone immune to the temptations of power and wealth, a necessity if anyone is to qualify as a good leader? — TheMadFool
Have you ever encountered anyone that fits the description? There must be a couple of such people out there somewhere. — TheMadFool
Lenin and Hitler come to mind in recent political history. Their goals were wrong, but boy they could lead. — god must be atheist
Do you think that Churchill was a leader during the war? Or Roosevelt? — Brett
Maybe what we need to consider is people who are used to dealing in power, who come from a cultural background where power is something they’ve learned to deal with, grown up with. It does sound elitist, but maybe that’s what real leaders are, instead of a corporal gaining power and wielding it without experience. — Brett
You asked if there was anyone that fitted the description of a leader that we knew of. I'm suggesting Churchill and Roosevelt fit that discription during the war years. — Brett
1. In order to learn this stuff about Big Pharma, about which we both agree, you had to trust someone on the basis of their purported expertise. You did not personally find all this out, you listened to experts - whether they we investigative journalists, drug database system administrators, certification authorities, testing labs - you had to decide that these people were likely to be telling you the truth. You say you used corroboration, but that is exactly the method used to assess all experts at a base level. — Isaac
Empty suit problem ( or “expert problem” ): some members of professions have no differential abilities from the rest of the population, but, for some reason, and against their empirical record, are believed to be experts: clinical psychologists, academic economists, risk experts, statisticians, political analysts, financial experts, military analysts, CEOs. etc. They dress up their expertise in beautiful language, jargon, mathematics, and often wear expensive suits. — Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Black Swan, Impact of the highly improbable
2. In trusting the Asian alternative companies you are presuming, without warrant, that simply because they are not engaged in the deceitful activities of the Big Pharma, they are not engaged in any unsavoury activities at all. Again, this is either an act of trust, or it is monumentally naive. There are all sorts of ways in which these companies might make money at someone's expense, even if the actual molecule they supply is the same one Big Pharma do. That is not the only effect a company has in conducting it's affairs. — Isaac
You cannot personally verify any of these things. To do so you must decide to trust experts. — Isaac
So, I occasionally use experts to discover new knowledge but only if the paperwork for such new knowledge can (conceivably) be verified mechanically. Otherwise, I do not trust these people. — alcontali
I only said, after a short preliminary investigation into the matter, that I do not see any reason to distrust their Methimez (generic) product any more than the Tapazole or Northyx (Big pharma) alternatives. — alcontali
what they proclaim are not objectively justified beliefs. If a belief is objectively justified, then its paperwork can also be verified mechanically. If that is not the case, then there are no experts in that particular field. — alcontali
I only use experts to discover candidate claims, i.e. hypotheses, and to produce the paperwork, which later on, will need to be verified mechanically (well, ideally). — alcontali
A good school for democratic leaders would be a democratic school.
http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk — unenlightened
But what if you needed, nonetheless, to make a decision in a field who's paperwork cannot be verified mechanically? Let's say economics. — Isaac
Taleb and Nobel laureate Myron Scholes have traded personal attacks, particularly after Taleb's paper with Espen Haug on why nobody used the Black–Scholes–Merton formula. Taleb said that Scholes was responsible for the financial crises of 2008, and suggested that "this guy should be in a retirement home doing Sudoku. His funds have blown up twice. He shouldn't be allowed in Washington to lecture anyone on risk."[4] — Wikipedia, Taleb on Myron Scholes
If I had to relive my life I would be even more stubborn and uncompromising than I have been. One should never do anything without skin in the game. If you give advice, you need to be exposed to losses from it. — Nassim Taleb on being stubborn and disagreeable
Often 'experts' are just a shortcut to knowledge which you yourself could verify but not in the space of time you have by which you need to make an informed decision. — Isaac
So no answer to the actual question then? — Isaac
A good school for democratic leaders would be a democratic school. — unenlightened
If words like black and white were involved, instead of the jargon words dead and living, he would see at once that language was being used in an improper way. Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Petain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality. — George Orwell in Politics and the English language
No, schools are places to keep children occupied so their parents can work, if any learning takes place it's a bonus, and the subjects are those thought most appropriate to a colonial ideal which are sorely in need of updating, not anything to do with importance, otherwise they would be computing, economics, household maintenance, and organisational skills at the very least. — Isaac
why is it that they don't impose the same exacting standards for their leaders (presidents, senators, governors, etc)? — TheMadFool
Democracy is a scam. — alcontali
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