Indeed, the whole idea of judging especially when matters of customs and morals are involved seems to be objectionable to some. — Ciceronianus the White
This is an outright smear. Nothing in her history shows her to be supportive of "right wing extremists" (I suspect you've set the bar rather low for this) or racism. Quite the opposite in fact. — Thorongil
Reason: Should we acknowledge that organized religion has sometimes sparked precisely the kinds of emancipation movements that could lift Islam into modern times? Slavery in the United States ended in part because of opposition by prominent church members and the communities they galvanized. The Polish Catholic Church helped defeat the Jaruzelski puppet regime. Do you think Islam could bring about similar social and political changes?
Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.
Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.
Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
Reason: Militarily?
Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.
Reason: Are we really heading toward anything so ominous?
Hirsi Ali: I think that’s where we’re heading. We’re heading there because the West has been in denial for a long time. It did not respond to the signals that were smaller and easier to take care of. Now we have some choices to make. This is a dilemma: Western civilization is a celebration of life—everybody’s life, even your enemy’s life. So how can you be true to that morality and at the same time defend yourself against a very powerful enemy that seeks to destroy you? — reason.com
Boy are you a cliche. Equate "conservative think tank" with "right wing extremism" and "racism," cite the SPLC, and play the Islamophobia card. Can I be sure I'm not talking to a robot?
I think her words in that interview were spot on and courageous. We're in real trouble if they now meet the standards for "controversy." — Thorongil
For the lazy: stoning to death is the punishment.
— Emptyheady
I think you reveal yourself here as an amateur Islamic scholar, unaware of the subtleties, nuances and rules of abrogation in that deeply complex religion. Allow me to educate you:
While stoning to death is AN accepted method of killing gays (Quran 7: 80-84, 15:72, 27:58, 29:40), it is not the ONLY method.
Gays can also be killed by throwing them off roofs, THEN stoning them if they are not already dead. OR they can be burnt at the stake. — tom
I think they are "attacked" by other academics because those others take their work seriously and don't need these charlatans to spout nonsense under the veneer of sensibility that working for a university grants. Call it professional pride. — Benkei
because universities are leftist fortresses reinforcing the leftist agenda — Benkei
however metaphorically — mcdoodle
on my spectrometer — mcdoodle
In my locality — mcdoodle
http://www.people-press.org/2009/07/09/section-4-scientists-politics-and-religion/When the leanings of independents are considered, fully 81% identify as Democrats or lean to the Democratic Party, compared with 12% who either identify as Republicans or lean toward the GOP.
Aside from what's what concerning Hirshi Ali, you put up a straw man with attacking her on her stance of female genital mutilation (which she has suffered) — Gooseone
As I said I haven't read Machteld Zee's work yet but she published the thesis which earned her a doctorate as a book, anyone who wishes can read it and come to their own conclusions. — Gooseone
Sigh. Genital mutilation isn't a Muslim problem, which she knew but lied about because she has issues. Whether she suffered it, is neither here nor there. — Benkei
So you have no way of assessing the merits of those articles but just feel they're not appropriate because they don't agree with your preconceived political notions. Notions so well established you'll defend someone who you don't even know. Fantastic. Very well-examined. — Benkei
So you have no way of assessing the merits of those articles but just feel they're not appropriate because they don't agree with your preconceived political notions. Notions so well established you'll defend someone who you don't even know. Fantastic. Very well-examined. — Benkei
I said "aside from the what's what concerning Hirshi Ali", you use one example to purport her words aren't to be taken on face value. You can probably find a bunch more and this just shows that one should always be critical and not blindly take things on face value.
And if I look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country there are certainly strong links between female genital mutilation, look at Indonesia and Malaysia for example. — Gooseone
Yes I have, I can read. The Volkskrant is implicitly mentioning Machteld and the (opinion!) article goes on saying that it's wrong to assume in advance that woman in Islamic cultures (Islam mentioned implicitly) do not necessarily suffer from unequal rights but might very well choose their position... so we shouldn't judge cultures with unequal rights... or something. Then they use the example about how woman aren't able to get a maidenhead restoration operation in Zweden and how we should respect woman's wishes more. They mention that in the Netherlands, 48% of such operations are applied for due to sexual abuse yet it's common knowledge here many woman use that as an excuse to get it done because there is a critical policy in the Netherlands. The essence of the article is basically saying we should show solidarity and don't judge the cultures which expect females to be virgin when they get married. "Why criticise the cultures which are hampering equal rights, who are we to tell woman how to emancipate?". — Gooseone
The NRC article starts of with saying that it's a bad thing to polarize debate by stating that Islam and feminism can't go together and ends with stating that these "racist, patriarchal, extreme right nationalist ideologies are irreconcilable with feminism". — Gooseone
Unlike you with your condescending tone, I also specifically mention that I'm not being sarcastic when I ask for information concerning right wing positions, I would gladly be more informed instead of "judging everything by my preconceived political notions".
Seeing you mainly try to set up straw man arguments so that you're better able to use an ad hominem in your discourse, I won't count on you providing such enlightening information. — Gooseone
”Imagine if a leader within the tea party movement were able to persuade its members to establish a third political party. Imagine he succeeded —overwhelmingly— and that as their leader he stood a real chance of winning the presidency. Then imagine that in anticipation of his electoral victory, the Democrats and Republicans quickly modified an existing antidiscrimination law so that he could be convicted for statements he made on the campaign trail.
All of this seems impossible in a 21st-century liberal democracy. But it is exactly what is happening in Holland to Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders.” — Wall Street Journal
Then there's her economic use of the truth, which runs through most of her work. Here's a nice example:Born Ayaan Hirsi Magam, she migrated to the Netherlands in 1992, changed her name to Hirsi Ali, and lied to Dutch authorities about her past. Contrary to the story she told the government, she arrived in the Netherlands not from war-torn Somalia, but from Kenya, where she lived in a secure environment and under the protection of the United Nations, which funded her education at a well-regarded Muslim girls’ school. Though she told immigration authorities and the Dutch public she had fled from civil war in Somalia, she left that country before its war broke out. Indeed, she did not live through a war there or anywhere else. Thanks to her fabrications, Hirsi Ali received political asylum in just five weeks.
Hirsi Ali told astonished audiences on Dutch talk shows that her supposedly devout family had forced her to marry a draconian Muslim man, that she had not been present at her own wedding, and that her family had threatened to kill her for offending their religious honor. However, Zembla told a drastically different story. Hirsi Ali’s brother, aunt and former husband each testified that she had indeed been present at her wedding. It turned out that Hirsi Ali’s mother had sent her brother to a Christian school, not exactly an indication of Islamic fanaticism.
“Yeah, I made up the whole thing,” Hirsi Ali admitted on camera to a Zembla reporter who confronted her with her lies. “I said my name was Ayaan Hirsi Ali instead of Ayaan Hirsi Magan. I also said I was born in 1967 while I was actually born in 1969.”
Hirsi Ali’s claim of honor killing threats also appears to be empty; she remained in touch with her father and aunt after she left her husband. In fact, her husband even came to visit her in the Dutch refugee center where she lived after leaving him. Even though he had paid her way to Europe on the grounds that she would join him in Canada, Hirsi Ali’s husband consented to the divorce she sought. — Max Blumenthal
If you look at70 percent of the violence in the world today, Muslims are responsible
Ah, so you can read. — Thorongil
To repeat: to talk about 'a war with Islam' is indeed 'controversial' rhetoric. To talk about it in public in that way in my community would align you with the extreme right-wing. Evidently you live among people who are happiter to talk in such an inflammatory way about the beliefs of their neighbours and friends than the people I know. — mcdoodle
It predates Islam, Chirstianity and Judaism. It's prohibited in Indonesia. It isn't a Muslim problem as it spans regions that are majority Christian as well. And Hirshi Ali's words aren't to be taken on face value for a lot of reasons but I think lying about a topic you got famous about is a pretty big one. That's not just "not blindly taking things on face value" that's reason to discard her writings to the thrash heap. — Benkei
Also, both Machteld and Ayaan had an agenda and set out to find data to confirm that agenda — Benkei
It's fascist in the sense that the "government knows best" — Benkei
Maybe you shouldn't be using Google translate because the article doesn't state this. It states it has created a schism in feminism. — Benkei
I gave you information but you don't care about it and just accuse me of straw man arguments, which I haven't. I've accused Ayaan of lying which is quite well established and handed you the facts and accused both of bad methodologies — Benkei
Apologies if my lack of patience then comes across as condescending but I'll remind you that you started accusing me of straw man arguments where there were none, which is pretty much the academics equivalent of plugging your ears with your fingers and screaming "lalalala" at the top of your lungs. — Benkei
Antidiscrimination law was never changed and not even attempted and the public prosecutor decided not to prosecute. It was subsequently forced to do so as a consequence of a court case brought by private individuals that demanded prosecution. Court decided in their favour. — Benkei
You claimed her statement on genital mutilation being linked to Islam to be false; you did so based on the origins of this practice and purport Egypt to be the only Islamic country (in Africa!) where it's prevalent. Though we might be able to look from the outside in and observe that the tradition is not necessarily linked towards religious practice, this does not mean that from the inside the practice has gained a religious narrative in many cases. I find that a misrepresentation and a lowly way of attacking her as a caricature, especially considering the many things you could have used (and have used later) to generate a more nuanced opinion on her. — Gooseone
I won't blame her for being selfish and making up stories about her immigration and I have doubts to what extent she felt the need to (indeed) become somewhat of a caricature due to being met with criticism from the left. (Haven't followed her much when she was politically active). — Gooseone
It's the way in which criticism is generated which bugs me, all the time (both on the left and on the right) you see people set up a caricature of their opponents and attacking them on that basis. It's odd that those who tend to claim moral superiority are so often inclined to judge everyone who doesn't share their opinion while not realising that they place their own values onto those who are unable to do anything with these values. — Gooseone
Here you apply moral relativism and use it to condemn ethical behaviour, I would not for instance call it fascist for governments to penalize murder. — Gooseone
There can be debate on this specific issue (and there should be!), if this was the case I would state my opinion in that I personally feel Islam, as a monolithic culture, hampers female rights overall and it's morally wrong to give everyone the full freedom to emancipate.
We have a past which we can use to observe the violent nature of reformation and also considering choice supportive bias, I feel it's justified to condemn a religion which 'generally' puts woman in a position which makes it hard for them to bring about change from the inside.
Religious indoctrination plays a role here also, whereas it might seem like fascism to impose our morals onto others, I am of the personal opinion there are sufficient grounds for doing so.
Conflating maidenhood restoration with male circumcision is a bad idea, maidenhood restoration, aside from the actual existence of such a thing as maidenhood is generally done "voluntarily" at an age round about the age of consent and the bulk of this wish stems from what, mostly religious believes, is expected from woman (virginity). There's lots to say about male circumcision, the main thing I'd like to say on the subject is that males are fortunate it generally doesn't hamper physical functionality.
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