So now to fight the "foreign virus", Trump put a travel ban on Europe, on foreign nationals.

Except the UK.

A Trumpian response. — ssu

No, a very obvious response, since the UK is controlling her borders, unlike the EU. Any other TDS kneejerk comments?

No, a very obvious response, since the UK is controlling her borders, unlike the EU. — Nobeernolife

LOL!

Now that's a truly kneejerk response from a loyal Trump supporter!

No matter that the UK has more deaths now from the Corona-virus than a larger country like Germany which is partly considered epidemic area btw. And that England’s deputy chief medical officer has predicted “thousands” of cases of coronavirus in Britain during an “epidemic peak”.

Or that that the UK doesn't see any Trump-styled travel ban necessary...

Chancellor Rishi Sunak has said he doesn't see the need for Britain to introduce a US-style flying ban to tackle the spread of coronavirus. He told the BBC "the evidence here does not support that".

No, the kneejerk response is that UK after Brexit takes care more of her borders. :grin:

And anyway, the virus is already firmly in the US. (Seems like accusations of syndromes is the new vogue.)

No matter that the UK has more deaths now from the Corona-virus than a larger country like Germany which is partly considered epidemic area btw. And that England’s deputy chief medical officer has predicted “thousands” of cases of coronavirus in Britain during an “epidemic peak”. — ssu

You are just fumbling, trying to use Corona as another excuse for Trump bashing. Typical TDS symptom.

Any criticism seems to be TDS for you. Extremely typical.

Because what is the argument that the UK is taking care more of it's borders here? You answer that one.

UK didn't have travel bans or flight suspensions to China. Italy had them!

See Travel Restrictions on China due to COVID-19 for what the situation was some days ago.

The response to an epidemic is something more complex than just a ban, especially if then other measures aren't taken. Here you can see the differences how various governments cope with the situation.

Because what is the argument that the UK is taking care more of it's borders here? You answer that one.

UK didn't have travel bans or flight suspensions to China. Italy had them! — ssu

I am not defending that the UK is late with restricting flights from CHina, just pointing out the UK is not part of the idiotic Schengen agreement, and not subject to the EUs insane migrant quotas. Look at the Greek border to see what is waiting for Euro0pe. I except the the flights from the UK to be restricted too, fwiw.
Now take your childish TDS to another tread, thanks.

The UK doesn't have any flight restrictions. Also if you fly in from an infected area, you are not checked, or tested. There is simply a notice asking you to self isolate.

Currently there are no restrictions for any EU citizen coming into the UK. No checks, no tests. Also the UK is effectively an EU member until 31 December 2020.

And pollution in those countries of course has nothing to do with environmental regulations?

Every Western government actively pursues growth. When environment and growth conflict, they will pursue growth. The concepts of wealth in its broadest sense and growth still haven't been integrated to make sensible policies. Instead they compete for government budget, with a final say by whoever is in charge of finances. That doesn't even have to mean major pollution immediately. But in the long run, we all know where it's headed. The costs of a diminishing quality of life is externalised, eg. borne by others than those making these decisions. Usually citizens in a given area.

Local examples: The Netherlands had a green space defined in the 80s where they would never build. They started building there in 2000. The airport wasn't supposed to have more flights. They changed the rules so the way sound pollution was measured changed. Roads have killed entire animal populations despite warnings it would do so because they were build across migration routes (and migration tunnels were too expensive). These were clear sacrifices for the benefit of economic growth. And here we're pretty environmentally minded due to a historic dependency on good land use planning since half the country is below sea level.

Austerity measures themselves are direct examples. A crisis created by banks and sovereigns results in bailing banks out, paid for by tax payer money. Instead of raising taxes for the beneficiaries so that they repay the bail out (which would even make economic sense) social benefit programs were cut. Wealth was destroyed because politicians fear a tanking economy if banks fail. Whereas the "free market" approach would be to have shitty banks fail for being shitty.

It's clear where a government's priorities lie and it isn't with sustainability or wealth creation but raw economic growth because that's the only measurement everybody talks about. How's the economy doing? Great, GDP was up! But that doesn't tell us anything (especially if it's credit/debt fueled).

So, no, this is not just a talking point.

I know that, the person without beer seemingly didn't.

I am not defending that the UK is late with restricting flights from CHina, just pointing out the UK is not part of the idiotic Schengen agreement, and not subject to the EUs insane migrant quotas. — Nobeernolife

Hence this has nothing to do with the corona-virus. Which is quite typical. Because that's what I get from Trump's response too.

Also what is very typical is the ignorance of the present. Europe really isn't the same as it was in 2016, but that naturally doesn't bother you at all. Notice that Greece closed it's borders from refugees from Turkey and the EU supported this. The EU has given money to Greece for it's border control and made a rapid response team ready to give support to Greece if needed. Everybody see's behind of this the manipulation of Erdogan after Turkish troops got killed in Syria by Russians.

But that of course doesn't fit into the Trumpian World view where only the courageous Brexiteers are taking care of their borders.

Some corporations (like people) are good, but obviously not all of them. Here in the US it is preached that corporations should be able to do whatever they like and that any government hindrance will hurt both profit and people's well being. I personally think not having corporations answerable to anyone other than their shareholders is no better than trying to run a town or city without any police and why corporations act like their in the "Wild West" when dealing with their employees and the rest of the world as a whole. — dclements

There seems to be a trend in government to hand over enforcement of consumer protection rules, to the corporations themselves, as a form self-governance. The health and safety rules are set by government agencies, but the task of inspecting and enforcing the rules is given to the companies which manufacture or produce the goods. This saves the government a good deal of money by not having to set up a network of inspection agencies, but it has a complex negative effect. First, the corporations are so huge that the same company in production might have a branch involved in health research, advising the government on health rules. Second, it excludes from existence small companies without the capital to set up their own inspection and enforcement system, reporting to the government. And third, as I think might be the case in the Boeing situation, the inspections and governance might not be very rigorous, falling into loopholes for the sake of profit.

When the third becomes evident, in the food industry for insistence, with listeria outbreaks, E.coli outbreaks, and other contaminants, consumer confidence in the corporations' capacity of self-governance wanes. We've lived under the illusion that the government has agencies and systems designed to protect our health and safety, when in reality that responsibility has been assigned to inanimate entities, corporations, without feelings, emotions, or sensibilities, structured for one purpose, profit. I can't wait for the self-driving car revolution, might have to stay home for the rest of my life and learn how to practise agoraphobia.

Cutting international air travel is not in itself a bad idea of course. It isolates countries which makes national measure more effective. Whether this measure or any other makes sense depends on cost effectiveness. This measure seems drastic. It is also totally uncoordinated which will produce a lot of ill will against the US. Not that trump cares but in the long run this 'social capital' is something the US will need in a global economy. I do not see the measure as being very effective. Probably US nationals, even if they are feeling sick at the moment will rush to get on board of planes. It makes sense for a small country like Israel but much less for a big one like the US which will have enough national sources of contamination to cover. The virus is already in the US and needs to be effectively controlled there. Does that happen is the question?

What I find at least as interesting is that Trump's travel ban fits discursively into a strategy he employs routinely, it is the fault of the other, in this case the Europeans. It is a very effective strategy of course, because it reinforces the belief of a special nation with good, clean people under threat of a dirty perverted outside world. If only we could thrive by ourselves and develop to the fullest we cannot be stopped. Instead other countries try to weaken our spirit with hoaxes like climate change or as in some earlier statements he indicated corona. The travel ban fits in a patter on politics by emotion instead of by ratio. It is one of the key elements used by totalitarian regimes. See Karl Loewenstein's article on militant democracy, DOI: 10.2307/1948164 and no, he was by no means anti Amercan.

PS, pour mr. NoBeerNoLife another one and make it strong. It is impossible to produce more non sequiturs anyway and perhaps he will enjoy his beer in a calmly fashion. I also advocate raising his taxes just for the hell of it.

Well, that is well and good but it is a very generic statement, that you could make about any US government and in fact against any government. Hindsight is always 20-20, isnt it. — Nobeernolife

Riight ....because everyone out there is talking about mobilizing the military, enforced quarantines, and enforcing martial laws in hot zones which my argument very (yawn) generic. I imagined if instead suggested we should hire hundreds of clowns and make endless balloon animals the same could be said of such an argument as well.

And it isn't 20/20 hindsight that is telling me anything, it is just a basic knowledge of how of viruses (& pathogens) work and knowing how the corona virus is different from thing like the "normal" seasonal flu. All I have to know is that corona virus is either as contagious or even more contagious then the common cold AND that it is believed to be at least ten times more lethal then the flu and I'm able to discern that it is a natural virus that nearly bio-weapon grade lethal capability. I will admit it took about a week of trying to read up on it before I could be fairly certain of it (which was about a week after Chinese New Year before various organizations started talking about it being "air borne" virus). This was a little before March and just a before the news started talking about the first few cases appearing in the US.

Also nobody is talking about the high possibility that over a quarter to half of the human population getting it (ie. anywhere from about 10 to 100 million dead), after catching it people being reinfected with it, and the probability that before a vaccine can be created that it evolves/mutates into another virus (just as SARS like virus is responsible for creating the corona virus) and we have to go through this all over again since immunity systems and drugs developed to deal with the corona virus today are not going to be that helpful a mutated version of it.

The problem is when there's a national crisis you need someone serious in office to deal with it not a moron. All those who thought it was fun to vote for an ignorant clown to run the country are having their circus thoroughly pissed on.

I more or less agree.

That said of course, I do not understand why the EU is not coordinating its measures better. I disapprove of silly unilateral action without consulting your allies, but I also do not understand why measures are taken on a national level in the EU while we have a common economic market. similar travel bans will be in place very soon intra the EU and that is not necessary bad with an outbreak like this, though we should also not overescalate. A tanking economy costs lives as well. It was rather silly though letting Italy close its public life but not quantanteening nationals who came from Italy, in some cases not even testing them. We have free movement of goods and services which means the EU should be much more focused also when it comes to a crisis of movement.

Cutting international air travel is not in itself a bad idea of course. It isolates countries which makes national measure more effective. Whether this measure or any other makes sense depends on cost effectiveness. — Tobias

Yet just cutting flights doesn't do it.

Italy is a case example of how do this wrong: stopping direct flights simply made people to take other hubs. And then of course you cannot exactly know who has come from China, whereas with a direct flight from China you can inform the people what to do and what cautions to take. The most important thing is to get information to everyone and prepare for more serious outbreak and to start controls.

What I find at least as interesting is that Trump's travel ban fits discursively into a strategy he employs routinely, it is the fault of the other, in this case the Europeans. It is a very effective strategy of course, because it reinforces the belief of a special nation with good, clean people under threat of a dirty perverted outside world. — Tobias

And don't forget Trump's first response, it's the new hoax of the Democrats! America has tackled the coronavirus!

Trump just few days ago, joking as he does:



Trump now, reading the teleprompter:



Here you see perfectly the stages how Trump deals with matters. Ad hock, one could say.

He's a very unstable genius.

I think he's already got it.

The profound dependence on governments to deal with pandemic is to me more frightening than the pandemic itself.

If drastic actions are taken they might break the tenuous balance between national security and freedom, especially in liberal democracies. If anything, the reactionary responses will set a new precedent for the future.

I suspect that the obsequious manner with which people look to officials for assurance and lullabies indicates an authoritarian impulse that will in many cases justify the minimizing of freedom for the sake of security, as if we need governments to tell us to wash our hands and not to touch our faces. Let’s be careful what we wish for.

People are dying because of that kind of ignorant attitude. Please don't play politics with this and go crawl back under the rock you crawled out from under.

Here's the reality folks. If Italy had acted sooner, this may not have happened. Death rate there stands at 6%.



https://nypost.com/2020/03/12/italian-actor-luca-franzese-pleads-for-help-in-video-showing-dead-sister/

Is Trump going to pull the US troops out of the Middle East and Asia? He should do as he will need them on the ground when the chaos starts. Or is he just going to leave them there to die?

I suspect that the obsequious manner with which people look to officials for assurance and lullabies indicates an authoritarian impulse that will in many cases justify the minimizing of freedom for the sake of security, as if we need governments to tell us to wash our hands and not to touch our faces. Let’s be careful what we wish for. — NOS4A2

That the "Hong Kong" virus killed about 34 000 - 100 000 in the US (and 1 million globally) and didn't cause such drastic measures than the corona-virus tells also something. I'm not sure if corona-virus will kill so many. But it wasn't such a huge thing in 1968-1968 as now.

Question is how much we do for one life saved. At least the economy seems no so important.

The director-general of the WHO stated today:

Let me be clear: describing this as a pandemic does not mean that countries should give up. The idea that countries should shift from containment to mitigation is wrong and dangerous.

These warnings should not be taken lightly.

That the "Hong Kong" virus killed about 34 000 - 100 000 in the US (and 1 million globally) and didn't cause such drastic measures than the corona-virus tells also something. I'm not sure if corona-virus will kill so many. But it wasn't such a huge thing in 1968-1968 as now.

Question is how much we do for one life saved. At least the economy seems no so important.

I would argue that the citizenry can do better to suppress the spread of the virus than a government. But given that entire generations since then have been raised in a cradle-to-the-grave environment, perhaps these days dependency on authority is stronger than self-reliance.

The profound dependence on governments to deal with pandemic is to me more frightening than the pandemic itself. — NOS4A2

What a knuckleheaded response. Dude, your extreme ignorance unfortunately is rearing its ugly head once again.

Your response as yet another reminder of the dangers of extremism. That's one of the reasons why we pay taxes you doofus; CDC, FDA, Homeland security, etc

Golladay what rock did you crawl out from under. And you call yourself a conservative?

How about this, don't ask for a test when , if God forbid, you get infected!

I’m not a conservative.

The balance between freedom on the one hand and security on the other is not that contentious of a debate, at least outside of specific bubbles. So I’m not sure what you’re on about save for routine hatred of those who think differently than you and a general taste for histrionics.

Btw, a question for everyone here:

Has the corona-virus epidemic effected your life yet?

My actual job is organizing training courses. Today the Finnish government came out with sets of instructions and limitations, for example the cancellation of big events. Hence my employer decided to cancel all courses until the end of May, so I guess I have more time to spend here on PF! Children are still going to school, although the politicians are debating if schools should stay open or not and if Finland should apply emergency powers legislation (which would be a first since WW2). The worst plunge in history of the local stock market happened here today (-10%), so there went part of my savings for some time. But oh well, stocks go up and down.

Nobody in the country has yet died of the virus and there has been 109 reported cases, 50 in the capital region, which all have been tracked to infections in foreign countries (mainly Northern Italy). The crucial event of a patient with an untraceable infection hasn't happened, as it has in Sweden. The estimate the high point of the pandemic is expected to be here in the summer.

How is it in your neighborhood?

How is it in your neighborhood? — ssu

I'm in NYC and my company shut down the office and told us to work from home until further notice

The Spanish Flu killed tens of millions. And here's an example from the time of why strong government intervention is necessary.

"In 1918, the city of Philadelphia threw a parade that killed thousands of people. Ignoring warnings of influenza among soldiers preparing for World War I, the march to support the war effort drew 200,000 people who crammed together to watch the procession. Three days later, every bed in Philadelphia’s 31 hospitals was filled with sick and dying patients, infected by the Spanish flu.

By the end of the week, more than 4,500 were dead in an outbreak that would claim as many as 100 million people worldwide. By the time Philadelphia’s politicians closed down the city, it was too late."

https://qz.com/1816060/a-chart-of-the-1918-spanish-flu-shows-why-social-distancing-works/

This really is enough to highlight the inanity of the type of things @NOS4A2 is saying. No doubt he will continue to say them anyway.

Unless you have a transformation recently, your support of right-wing extreme politics says that you're a staunch conservative.

As far as freedom viz pandemics, governments, unfortunately/fortunately can help people help themselves. Especially when there is an abundance of prevailing ignorance. It's called public safety you numbnuts!

Sorry I'm busting your balls but you got to tighten up dude