Whether he's part of the whole Russia thing I have no clue but his incessant willful ignorance and irresponsible comments has reached a dangerous level. I hate to say this but I would recommend banning him.

Unless you have a transformation recently, your support of right-wing extreme politics says that you're a staunch conservative.

As far as freedom viz pandemics, governments, unfortunately/fortunately can help people help themselves. Especially when there is an abundance of prevailing ignorance. It's called public safety you numbnuts!

Sorry I'm busting your balls but you got to tighten up dude

I think your reliance on government for your own safety, even in times of pandemic, is indicative of a growing authoritarian impulse found rife in the Western world. Hopefully you saw the Chinese response and the cries of the people there, as the government stripped them what little rights they had. All I’m saying is we should be careful what we wish for.

This guy's got to go. His goal here is now clear and painfully obvious. His propaganda is dangerously motivated. I've seen enough to call it what it is...

This guy's got to go. His goal here is now clear and painfully obvious. His propaganda is dangerously motivated. I've seen enough to call it what it is...

I get the sinking feeling that perhaps you’re scared of my arguments, and the subsequent realization that you have little to combat them with save for lies and appeals for censorship. But we can turn our disagreement into an opportunity to strengthen our own beliefs.

I think it's absolutely wrong to play politics, especially delusional politics, with a life and death situation like this. But it's obvious what he's doing, and it's fairly easy to counter if you have the stomach for dealing with him. You can also report his posts. If a consensus develops in the mod team that @NOS4A2 is indeed a troll with an agenda, action will be taken. (And that goes for anyone who's reported. Now let's get back on topic).

This is unjust and unfair. I have done nothing wrong.

Look at the graph comparing the Spanish Flu outcomes in Philadelphia and St Louis. Many more died in Philadelphia because the government failed to take action to stop the parade during the pandemic. Should they have acted or not?

You have it backwards: corporate profits are dependent on human beings and human good. This a given since human beings/human good have existed for hundreds of years before anyone invented the notion of corporations and corporations are dependent on the work of human beings (or at least the work of sentient beings) in order for them to exist. — dclements

Your point may have been well-taken if I had been speaking about the origin of corporations and their dependence on humans for that. My point was concerned with the current co-dependence between corporations and the common good (or at least what is generally seen by our society and its individuals to be the common good; i.e modern medicine, comprehensive health care, social welfare, the benefits of technology, comfort, convenience etc, etc, the financing of all of which are dependent on our present growth economy, and will continue to be so unless the population begins to diminish instead of growing).

This really is enough to highlight the inanity of the type of things NOS4A2 is saying. No doubt he will continue to say them anyway. — Baden

Your example also shows how much things have changed. And hence I'm in the camp that even if the corona-virus is a killer, it's not a killer like the Spanish flu. The numbers are unlikely in the ballpark of even the Hong Kong virus when it's over. My argument is:

a) Modern medicine. Antibiotics. Knowledge how to prevent pandemics.
b) International cooperation on the subject. We've learned a lot from past pandemics.
c) Information society: news spreads extremely quickly. People learn through the various media extremely quickly and know what to do.
d) Different attitudes. We don't take this as just a "nasty flu" and go on as if nothing as with ordinary influenzas.

NOS4A2 can bitch about government overkill on the issue, but that is what they do. They do put limitations on all of us, even if it's a tiny fraction of us that get the worst of the disease.

I would argue that the citizenry can do better to suppress the spread of the virus than a government. — NOS4A2

Especially with a pandemic, the actions of the citizenry make the difference. But you simply cannot avoid the fact that coordination is absolutely crucial. It's a team effort. Hence, you need a citizenry that will take the necessary precautions. Not eat garlic & vitamins and think that's the cure.

Since we're posting videos about it:

https://youtu.be/1LfQlYESTHg

Jimmy Kimmel on the virus.

get the sinking feeling that perhaps you’re scared of my arguments, and the subsequent realization that you have little to combat them with save for lies and appeals for censorship. — NOS4A2

Your arguments are clear propaganda. And you're right, you're willful ignorance is scary.

Others including myself have repeatedly made attempts to educate you, but you continue to either play dumb or play like an ostrich and keep putting your head in the sand only to complain it's dark. You would just argue for the sake of arguing. It plays into your goal of furthering this dissension and dangerous propaganda.

Surely it would have been better had the parade not occurred. The city should have stopped the parade.

think it's absolutely wrong to play politics, especially delusional politics, with a life and death situation like this. But it's obvious what he's doing, and it's fairly easy to counter if you have the stomach for dealing with him. You can also report his posts. If a consensus develops in the mod team that NOS4A2 is indeed a troll with an agenda, action will be taken. — Baden

Thanks Baden. I will vote for his removal accordingly. Politics is one thing, but the health and well-being of citizens worldwide is another.

But you simply cannot avoid the fact that coordination is absolutely crucial. — ssu

That's where government comes in. Look how bad Italy is now and imagine what it would be like if they hadn't been put on lockdown (even more so re China). The danger is of a whole health system collapsing. Not just for Covid sufferers, but for everyone. And panic, looting, and so on. The infection curve is exponential and if you don't catch that quick enough with coordinated and enforced government action, you could end up with social collapse. That's not hyperbole. It's a real possibility and sacrificing a few freedoms in the short term is a small price to pay to prevent it becoming a reality.

I think the unpredictable effects would be due to the degree of chaos and the efforts of vigilante groups to survive. — Punshhh

I don't know how significant an effect that vigilantism precipitated by panic, and the concomitant lawless plundering and theft, would have in a pandemic crisis. I had more in mind the unpredictable economic effects due to cascading failures within what is an extremely complex, interdependent and hence fragile system that is dependent upon diminishing resources and subject to ever-growing demand, so-called "domino" effects that might be precipitated by an unforeseen event such as a pandemic.

The fragility of our global economic system is hidden behind a smokescreen of burgeoning credit, which sustains the dangerous illusion of economic growth and the idea that the human economy can grow forever, unconstrained by nature. The money economy cannot forever remain apparently decoupled from the energy and resources economy; at some point there must come a reckoning.

Which is depending on government to deal with a pandemic, no?

Yet you said earlier:

The profound dependence on governments to deal with pandemic is to me more frightening than the pandemic itself. — NOS4A2

Which is depending on government to deal with a pandemic, no?

I’m not sure why a government would hold a parade during a pandemic of such proportions. I can only wonder how it might have been had they not done so. Maybe they aren’t as fallible as we are led to believe.

Surely it would have been better had the parade not occurred. The city should have stopped the parade.

And should Trump have banned all flights from Europe today, without consulting anyone in Europe?

The record drops in shares in response to his knee jerk reaction are understandable. They realise that with such an imbecile in charge of the country anything could happen.

Should he be recalling his troops from the Middle East? You do realise don't you that the virus will go endemic rapidly in the populations in the region, causing chaos far worse than we've seen so far. Does he really want to leave his boys there to get infected in a hell hole?

You know what, he probably hasn't even given it a moments thought.

And should Trump have banned all flights from Europe today, without consulting anyone in Europe? — Punshhh

Too little, too late. Donald "Pandora" Trump

I oppose Trump’s travel ban on the matter. I preferred what he was doing before: leaving it to the states to govern themselves.

I agree entirely, I was thinking about what could happen after the collapse.

WSJ op-ed page already using the opportunity to claim that Britain and Italy are struggling with the virus because...wait for it...government is TOO involved with healthcare!

If only we lived in a world where literally everything was privatized, in the hands of big corporations. Nothing would go wrong with those smart people in charge.

So no leadership then. Well I agree it's better than the alternative, which we saw today.

So no leadership then. Well I agree it's better than the alternative, which we saw today.

Well, those who have actually worked directly with the administration on their own efforts, such as the Mayor of New York and the Governor of California, have praised Trump’s coordination. So I suspect your claims are somewhat misguided.

Too little, too late. Donald "Pandora" Trump

Quite, I was thinking of the Queen in Alice in Wonderland, " off with their heads, off with their heads".

Shame he couldn't coordinate with the EU, just place the blame on them instead.

"Off with their heads!"

I oppose Trump’s travel ban on the matter. I preferred what he was doing before: leaving it to the states to govern themselves. — NOS4A2

Ummm....the states? So 50 different approaches what to do? And how many borders? Especially when there's only a few without corona-virus cases?

Meanwhile, at the DNC:



We'll be dry in no time!

I agree entirely, I was thinking about what could happen after the collapse. — Punshhh

Yes, I certainly don't want to dismiss, or even diminish, any estimation of the effects of human panic and self-interest in a projected scenario of total collapse. How desperate people might become would seem to depend on how total a possible collapse might be.

I’m not sure why a government would hold a parade during a pandemic of such proportions. I can only wonder how it might have been had they not done so — NOS4A2

It might have been that most of those people wouldn't have died. So, yes, the government should have stopped it because they, not the citizenry, are ultimately responsible for decisions regarding public health and safety. And the citizenry should be able to reasonably presume if events such as this are given the go-ahead, they're relatively safe. In other words, the government are in a better position to combat pandemics because they have the power cut through confusion and misinformation and act decisively for the public good.

I would argue that the citizenry can do better to suppress the spread of the virus than a government. But given that entire generations since then have been raised in a cradle-to-the-grave environment, perhaps these days dependency on authority is stronger than self-reliance. — NOS4A2

So, your position doesn't seem coherent to me. It's part of a government's job to combat massive threats to public safety. Individuals are responsible for their own safety to a large degree obviously, but they can only enact this responsibility in the social and legal context the government creates for them. For example, if the government tells you you can stay home from work, your ability to protect yourself from a pandemic greatly increases. That is not dependency, that's a properly functioning society.