↪Athena Reason is not faith based. That is why we still have religion and science, and why they want to be distinguished as mutually exclusive. — LuckilyDefinitive
That depends on the decinition. THe definition I used bases morality on a religion, and ethics simply as a societal standard. So yes, if you do not believe in religion, you can have ethics without morality. But of course if you use a different defintion, you get to a different conclusion. — Nobeernolife
That is a serious problem with religion. It totally screws up our understanding of democracy which is rule by reason and dependent on moral reasoning — Athena
1. This attributes the faults of specific individuals who claim to be religious to religion itself. You might as well say "Speech creates a serious problem because some people lie." — Pantagruel
2. In what world is democracy rule by reason and dependent on moral reasoning? Certainly not this one. — Pantagruel
That is a serious problem with religion. It totally screws up our understanding of democracy which is rule by reason and dependent on moral reasoning (cause and effect). From there it screws up every other notion of humanity and after screwing up every thought with false and superstitious ideas, it leads people to war. We live with a notion that we can not avoid war because it is in our nature, but what about the religious cause of war? — Athena
You should stop generalizing about "religion". There are very different religions out there, some more beneficial or dangerous than others. I.e. How many wars were fought on behalf of Jainism, Buddhism, or Bahaism? Can you spell zero?
Typically when people like you generalize about "religion", they are thinking about medieval Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. But that is not all there is. Generalizing about "religion" is like generalizing about "ideology".... as if all ideologies were the same.
So please stop doing that!
Thank you. — Nobeernolife
Fascinating. You have completely failed to respond to point 1, that you have committed the fallacy of generalization, by employing the fallacy of misdirection.
Meanwhile, while you are not willing to allow religion to assume an idealized character, independent of the shortcomings of its adherents, you are more than willing to be an apologist for democracy.
Do you see the irony? — Pantagruel
Yes, I am devoted to democracy and I don't see any irony in that. Please, explain the irony. — Athena
The irony is that, in your devotion to democracy, you are prepared to defend the abstract ideal of democracy, despite the shortcomings of its implementation by specific individuals. Whereas you completely deny that exact same freedom and right to the ideal of religion. — Pantagruel
Well of course. Democracy is about discovering truth and basing life decisions on truth. Religion is not. — Athena
Which religion would like to rule the nation where you live? We may have a good discussion if you focus on the thoughts and not on me. — Athena
Well of course. Democracy is about discovering truth and basing life decisions on truth. Religion is not. Democracy is about human excellence, religion might strive for that but the way it attempts to achieve that is very problematic because it is not based on truth. — Athena
Democracy is an ideology. It is not universally understood and that is most certainly true in the US! The US is Christian and Christianity supports autocracy and the US is more autocratic than democratic. I doubt if anyone in the US can write 10 characteristics of democracy, while a professor in Syria, I met online, had a far better understanding of democracy than people in the US. When I praise democracy it sure is not the US I praise. — Athena
Democracy is about discovering truth and basing life decisions on truth — Athena
I don't understand what that means, what difference is there in a religious moral "truth" such as prohibition of murder, and a "secular" system such as Common Law asserting a moral truth or rule against murder?Democracy is about human excellence, religion might strive for that but the way it attempts to achieve that is very problematic because it is not based on truth.
I'm curious what you mean by "secular" vs "religious" matter; in practice most of those popular dichotomies are false.
For example, the Common Law system evolved from older ones, including "religious ones", though most would call it "secular" and not belonging to any specific religion or "sect", despite the influence of Christianity and other systems such as Roman on its development. — IvoryBlackBishop
Your position smacks very much of the social problem that is criticized in the book I just started reading, Habermas' Theory of Communicative Action.
Basically a fallout of the Enlightenment, when people came to have an unreasonable belief in the inevitable superiority of the rationalist-reductive approach, inspired by Newton's accomplishments. Culminating in the dreary technical anomie of our modernist world.
"The progress of societal rationalization...turned out to be, according to Weber, the ascendency of purposive rationality....not a reign of freedom, but the dominion of impersonal economic forces and bureaucratically organized administrations"
So much for the ideal of democracy as an ideal of rational human excellence. — Pantagruel
The irony is that, in your devotion to democracy, you are prepared to defend the abstract ideal of democracy, despite the shortcomings of its implementation by specific individuals. Whereas you completely deny that exact same freedom and right to the ideal of religion. — Pantagruel
WHICH religion? You are still generalizing about "religion" which makes absolutely no sense. Also, where do you get the idea from that "Democracy is about discovering truth and basing life decisions on truth"`? You completely made that up, didn´t you. — Nobeernolife
Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men — Athena
If your morals forbid theft, then you never steal, even if your hunger is more painful than the hunger of the guy who steals not due to fear of criminal charges and of what they might lead to. — god must be atheist
The basic premise or philosophy of the law is the "golden rule", which is an axiom that is also part of world religions, — IvoryBlackBishop
I fail to understand what your saying, or what this has to do with "Romanticism"; as far as Islam in specific, I haven't studied it in depth. — IvoryBlackBishop
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