The American system provides very high quality care to a lot of people. Some people are unfairly under-served. The question is how to deal with the bottom 25%, not blow up the system that's working for the 75%. — fishfry

That's the thing, you said it right there.

I don't know if it is 25% to 75% ratio, but something along the lines it has to be. Hell, even Maw is personally OK how things are in his life when it comes to health care!

Then of course, you are talking at a "Philosophy Forum", not on a forum dedicated to either golf or yachting. So I guess many here are younger than Bitter Crank and don't have a luxurious health insurance policies. Or if they do, then they have their principles.

That's the thing, you said it right there.

I don't know if it is 25% to 75% ratio, but something along the lines it has to be. Hell, even Maw is personally OK how things are in his life when it comes to health care!

Then of course, you are talking at a "Philosophy Forum", not on a forum dedicated to either golf or yachting. So I guess many here are younger than Bitter Crank and don't have a luxurious health insurance policies. Or if they do, then they have their principles. — ssu

Typical technocratic approach, which isn't necessarily the right approach. It's also rather callous. How many people should have shitty healthcare before admitting the system isn't working? 30, 35, 40... or even 50%? The liberty people think they're pursuing by resisting a government run solution to healthcare (which works as shown in many countries across the world) actually hurts a fair amount of people causing them to have the liberty to choose between paying a healthcare bill and becoming homeless. Which is no choice at all in a civilised country. John Mill had something to say about exercising liberty when it hurts others but God forbid you pay a bit of extra tax (@fishfry I'm talking to you).

40% of Americans are one paycheck away from poverty because they don't manage to save enough. That means that even with insurance, one serious condition can bankrupt you due to deductibles and co-payments. While wage increases are stagnating, we can only expect this percentage to increase.

Can sound callous, but perhaps in your European exemplar righteousness you don't notice how condescending you might sound when you say:

The liberty people think they're pursuing by resisting a government run solution to healthcare (which works as shown in many countries across the world) actually hurts a fair amount of people causing them to have the liberty to choose between paying a healthcare bill and becoming homeless. — Benkei

The liberty people? So your reason is that those Americans believing in liberty and small government are the cause of the problem and hence basically hurting others? Sounds like they are like those gun enthusiasts. No wait, they are the same Americans! Oh those terrible people!!!

I'll just follow a different path of thinking here. I think that the issue really is that enough people have to be at least somewhat OK and accept the present system for it to exist. If asked, they may not like it. Maw earlier is the perfect example. We know what he thinks about this, yet he himself says he's OK, because he is fortunate to have a good job. And there's services where he lives. Isn't that a huge issue for many: being fortunate to have a good job?

Let me put it another way: Is there something you don't like in your country, but you aren't willing to take up arms and man the barricades or simply move out of your country because of it? I think there might be something like that which annoys you.

Perhaps the reason is that even if the problem is annoying, it isn't totally unbearable.

The liberty people? — ssu

The liberty they think they're pursuing...

So your reason is that those Americans believing in liberty and small government are the cause of the problem and hence basically hurting others? Sounds like they are like those gun enthusiasts. No wait, they are the same Americans! Oh those terrible people!!! — ssu

... by resisting a government run solution to healthcare. It's a very specific issue addressing a very specific argument. Your reaction seems to be to something else than I actually said.

I'll just follow a different path of thinking here. I think that the issue really is that enough people have to be at least somewhat OK and accept the present system for it to exist. If asked, they may not like it. Maw earlier is the perfect example. We know what he thinks about this, yet he himself says he's OK, because he is fortunate to have a good job. And there's services where he lives. Isn't that a huge issue for many: being fortunate to have a good job? — ssu

The issue of (un)employment is a totally different one yet again. Of course that's a huge issue. The reply is though "so what?" when we're talking about healthcare. If only good jobs (whatever that even is) gets you coverage then that means poor people just get shafted (again), besides the lower wages they also have to pay more for healthcare because their coverage is worse or non-existent and they usually have worse lifestyle choices requiring more healthcare. The government has to step up in some way to make sure people have healthcare regardless of whether they have a "good" job or not.

Let me put it another way: Is there something you don't like in your country, but you aren't willing to take up arms and man the barricades or simply move out of your country because of it? I think there might be something like that which annoys you. — ssu

If there was a system that randomly killed 1 jobless person out of 10, and of the working population 6% of people are jobless. Would you be ok with that just because the percentage is low and you have a job (so you're safe)?

People like to obfuscate the moral dimension here but not being able to afford healthcare means people die from otherwise treatable diseases.

If there was a system that randomly killed 1 jobless person out of 10, and of the working population 6% of people are jobless. Would you be ok with that just because the percentage is low and you have a job (so you're safe)?

People like to obfuscate the moral dimension here but not being able to afford healthcare means people die from otherwise treatable diseases. — Benkei

American healthcare is like feudalism.. Your Lord provides you the ability to access healthcare. If you cross the Lord and get fired, you will suffer the consequences. From what I recall, the system developed after WWII whereby it was mainly the company's job to provide healthcare instead of perhaps better wages as a way to keep people on board (and perhaps increase bottom line)?

I see two things going on, Benkei. 1) Americans who "like" the system currently haven't really had a chance to see the hefty prices of a real emergency at a hospital.. Once they see bills upwards to the 10s of thousands of dollars, they might change their tune.. until then, their $20 copays and $300 premiums seem OK enough for them. 2) It's called cognitive dissonance. Even if some people do get these hefty bills, they can't picture what such a large overhaul would look like, and get scared. Also, if they grew up with "rugged individualism" they might say ridiculous things like "you just want things for free" or "doctors need incentives" and things like this.

If only good jobs (whatever that even is) gets you coverage then that means poor people just get shafted (again), besides the lower wages they also have to pay more for healthcare because their coverage is worse or non-existent and they usually have worse lifestyle choices requiring more healthcare.

We have like 74 million people on medicare. Another maybe 6-7 million who are eligible but don't sign up. We also have another 20 million veterans who again get free, government healthcare. government involvement in healthcare is huge in the US. the government will subsidize you if you're low income. the ones who get shafted are the middle class who do earn pay but they get squeezed a little. everybody agrees that healthcare needs reform in the US the issue is how exactly to do it, but don't pretend like we're just on a private, free market system right now.

the ones who get shafted are the middle class who do earn pay but they get squeezed a little. — BitconnectCarlos

Understatement. If there is an emergency or underlying condition, they get squeezed a lot until they are out of the middle class.

the ones who get shafted are the middle class who do earn pay but they get squeezed a little. — BitconnectCarlos

That's probably the 40% of Americans that are one payslip away from poverty.

I don't know if it is 25% to 75% ratio, but something along the lines it has to be. Hell, even Maw is personally OK how things are in his life when it comes to health care! — ssu

I explicitly said I was in a privileged position in regards to healthcare that most Americans aren't in, and even then I'm certainly not happy with what I pay out of pocket. What part of that do you have trouble understanding?

I'm certain that neither are many of your fellow Americans. But don't underestimate just how many feel privileged just having a job and a decent income.

You guys sound like a bunch of wounded animals

Asking people to do two things: get rid of Trump and get rid of the system - political and economic system - that gave us Trump, that, I think, was too much to ask probably for people who were just like 'Can we just get rid of Trump? - Please!' And I understand that ... — Michael Moore, interviewed on MSNBC about Sanders' loss in Michigan primary, 3.10.20

:mask:

So Sanders lost Michigan. Now Joe can have his ice cream!

You asked me for an honest answer and you give a knowingly dishonest interpretation. Fuck off with this dumb shit and stick to spending your days watching the XFL. — Maw

Every single one of the Dem candidates is on record as wanting to give free health care to anyone who shows up from anywhere in the world. You think your taxes won't go through the roof to pay for that?

I think this response is disingenuous. I was illustrating that not everything the government does is awful, nor do the public view it that way. Now you want to say that the reason it's popular is because of the private aspect of it, or otherwise "people would hate it." Heads I win, tails you lose. — Xtrix

Yes, that is exactly the case. Straight Medicare would be very unpopular. It doesn't pay enough benefits and it offers no flexibility. It's the private component that makes it work. You should do your homework on this issue. What I state is well-known fact.

Most Americans are perfectly happy with their health care.
— fishfry

Hah! — creativesoul

You could look it up.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/05/03/sorry-bernie-most-americans-like-their-health-insurance-way-it-is/

Every single one of the Dem candidates is on record as wanting to give free health care to anyone who shows up from anywhere in the world. You think your taxes won't go through the roof to pay for that? — fishfry

Nope

Nope — Maw

It is pure fantasy to believe that the access and quality Americans enjoy today would hold if private insurance were abolished.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/opinion/medicare-for-all-cost.html

Where does it say my taxes will "go through the roof"?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx — fishfry

"Older, higher income Americans rate their Healthcare quite positively"

Where does it say my taxes will "go through the roof"? — Maw

I appreciate your and everyone else's passion on this topic. Medicare for All is dead as a campaign issue. Biden is on record as opposing it and wanting to extend Obamacare. I've said my piece and will leave it at that.

Tragically, and I know you'll be personally devastated to hear this, they just cancelled the rest of the XFL season. Looks like I'm stuck here for the duration for my entertainment. I just washed my hands so it's ok.

I appreciate your and everyone else's passion on this topic. Medicare for All is dead as a campaign issue. Biden is on record as opposing it and wanting to extend Obamacare. I've said my piece and will leave it at that. — fishfry

Oh so it doesn't say that, you just like making stuff up.

Fishfry, I think one of the reasons is shown in the following graph very clearly:



So how can the health care cost be half of what you pay in many countries and still have the ability to afford universal health care?

Now I don't believe that public sector health care is particularly efficient, yet think about it. You pay twice and even more than twice than others. And in the end, the public heath statistics are dismal. I would say the US system a racket.

I do understand and it's a real possibility, if your argument is that the US would totally f*#k up an universal health care system if the corrupt system was put to make it...

I would say the US system a racket. — ssu

It's amazing how insurance companies and other vested interests have managed to convince tools like @fishfry that a system that costs twice as much as it should, is half as good as it should be, and makes them billions is in his and the public's interest. All the data in the world won't wake the guy up to reality. Pure ideological blindness.

It's amazing how insurance companies and other vested interests have managed to convince tools like fishfry that a system that costs twice as much as it should, is half as good as it should be, and makes them billions is in his and the public's interest. All the data in the world won't wake the guy up to reality. Pure ideological blindness. — Baden

Perhaps I just lived through the disastrous Obamacare rollout and watched over the next few years as everyone's premiums went through the roof. Perhaps, unlike most people, I spent decades paying for my own health care out of my own pocket and thereby know a lot more about how health care costs and how it's paid for than the average office worker with a company-supplied insurance plan.

Perhaps I don't trust the government to run my health care. I don't trust them to run my foreign policy, do you? And for what it's worth, Joe Biden is opposed to Medicare for All and wants to extend Obamacare. 100 million Democrats can't be wrong, right? LOL. Cognitively impaired Joe is their savior. Point being that the Democratic party has decided against your chimera of a government takeover of healthcare. Your argument is no longer with me. It's with the entire Democratic establishment. Sorry Bernie bro's. And if I'm a tool, I'm a whammin' slammin' jackhammer baby.

Pure ideological blindness. — Baden

We need socialism in order to get rid of stupidity. Capitalism is melting people's brains, just look at @fishfry

We need socialism in order to get rid of stupidity. Capitalism is melting people's brain, just look at fishfry — Maw

Funny how facts have been replaced by insults in my last couple of mentions. You like Stalin, Mao, and Castro? Good for you. "Oh but that wasn't REAL socialism, nobody's ever done it right." LOL. Now THAT is dumb.

You don't trust a government which you can vote for and change (i.e. you don't trust the public including yourself) but you trust corporations whose only motivation is profit. Really? Have you ever stopped and asked yourself cui bono? Who does this attitude and the ideology it represents benefit? It doesn't benefit the American public as a whole because your health care system is measurably one of the worst in the developed world and, as repeatedly pointed out, costs the public more in taxes than anywhere else in the developed world. It does benefit insurance companies massively because they make more money in America than anywhere. Try putting that all together. Maybe read some Gramsci on hegemony. You've been conned. This whole hysterical mistrust of government thing is manufactured by corporations afraid of the public using government as a tool to look after their own interests rather than theirs, i.e. of democracy. Seriously, just sit down and think.

They were "through the roof" before that already. The price increases for Obamacare are exaggerated and actually less than historic trends, with possible outliers in certain states.

See; https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/071415/did-obamacare-make-premiums-go.asp

Seriously, just sit down and think. — Baden

I've sat down and studied the twentieth century. I lived through a good chunk of it. Socialism is the most brutal, dehumanizing system ever imagined. A boot stamping on a human face as Orwell put it. Think of the awful cybertotalitarian regime in China. That's not my vision for the future. That's my vision of the thing I will stand up and oppose to my dying breath.