So back when we had real authoritarian regimes or feudalism, that wasn't stressful?

In Feudalism the noble aristocrat was the owner, the judge, a mini-king for the serfs. That's more power than Bill Gates has on your life.

GCB nothing to disagree with there. And to answer you rhetorical question, of course they should.

I’m pretty sure the body causes stress, not governments.

I’m pretty sure the body causes stress, not governments. — NOS4A2

Environmental factors are part of the causal story, no?

Environmental factors are part of the causal story, no?

I may be quibbling here but I think a stressful situation is different than what causes stress. Stress itself begins and ends in biology.

I may be quibbling here but I think a stressful situation is different than what causes stress. Stress itself begins and ends in biology. — NOS4A2

Ah OK. I see what you mean.

I’m pretty sure the body causes stress, not governments. — NOS4A2

The body becomes stressed, due to environmental (in the broadest sense) effects. Obviously cognition is involved.

The body becomes stressed, due to environmental (in the broadest sense) effects. Obviously cognition is involved.

I’m pretty sure stress is a response to an environment rather than an effect of an environment. It’s more a method of coping than the necessary result of being in this or that environment.

Stress is not a voluntary response, if that is what you want to suggest by emphasizing a distinction between the terms "effect" and "response", but a neurochemical response to environmental effects. This is not to say that stress-reduction techniques cannot be learned, but whether or not you become stressed is not mostly up to you.

Being in a bad lot is not stressful. Not psychologically. Stress comes from having to be in a state of readiness. To change behaviour with a new stimulus. If the stock market goes down, sell your stocks, if the lights go out, start up the generator, if the boss is not happy with your progress, you need to look for another job. You need to file your taxes and use an incomprehensible tax package; your kid breaks a tooth, you need to pay for orthodontic services. Your wife gets a gall bladder stone, you need to research hospitals which is the cheapest but still good enough. Your dog caughs up fur balls, and you need to look up the description of your dog, because you suspect that the pet store sold you a cat instead of a dog. ETC.

A serf had his life cut out for him, not much variation, nothing to look out for. Work hard, eat little. Get beaten, not have sex. Be screamed at, be humble. This was the road map to life for a serf. It is not pleasant for a peasant, but not stressful.

What gave him stress was the weather, the rodents, the thieves, the invading Huns. These were uncontrollable variables that he could only avoid by prayer, and prayer hadn't had a chance of a prayer to stave off losses much bigger than a prayer of a loss. And please notice that none of them were instigated by the overlord of the peasant serf.

I think this issue has more to do with people adopting government's/nation's ideas of success, than governments trying to make their citizens miserable.

I can't speak for other countries, but where I live it's inconceivable that someone starves or has to sleep outside when it's freezing, etc. Even those who have nothing will be given some care, albeit quite minimal.

So what is this stress based on, then, if not the desire to hold onto things or acquire more things? And why should people not have to take responsibility for those desires?

If it's the regular, habitual human response to certain environmental forces why would it not be a cause? How does the body remain outside, for example, a determinism including it's being affected on by the world. If we want to technical we could say that someone bleeding out from a knife wound is caused by the heart pumping blood to that limb. Or that corona does not cause any deaths. Or that solitary confinement has no effect on a person's pscyhological well being. I don't think we should say those things however.

I’m pretty sure the body causes stress, not governments. — NOS4A2

I'm pretty sure the government is made of bodies.

Saying that things are bad now isn’t saying they weren’t worse (even in the same regards) before. The abusive structures of capitalism are just softened and disguised versions of the same structures you’re talking about. Being softened makes them better than the raw untempered versions there used to be, sure, but that doesn’t make everything sunshine and roses today either.

That's more power than Bill Gates has on your life. — ssu

I don't think it is. Well more Jeff than Bill. But it's not that someone has ultimate power, but that they have ubiquitous power. The modern stress is that everything is up for judgement and control, your body-shape, how much you drink eat, fart, everything you say Did I hear the N word? Did you take a piss somewhere you shouldn't? Are you obese, or is that a suicide belt you're wearing? The mere power of life and death is a small thing. Having to dig dirt all day isn't stressful.

Right, it seemed assumed that there was a comparison across time, when I don't see one in the OP. The OP seems to be saying this is what is happening now, which is not contradicted by what happened at other times.

The abusive structures of capitalism are just softened and disguised versions of the same structures you’re talking about. Being softened makes them better than the raw untempered versions there used to be, sure, but that doesn’t make everything sunshine and roses today either. — Pfhorrest

You are simply underrating the true advances in human society just to make a point how things still suck. This is quite typical when really don't think or know how things have changed. Yet there is quite a leap from feudalism to the present.

The thing is that one does have freedoms like choosing the place to live or deciding on what job to take. You don't have an owner who you have to ask permission to marry. You and your work cannot be sold or bought: if the company you work for is sold, you do have the ability to quit. You are not in an obligation to work for a lord. Also, the lord that own's the land isn't responsible of you. This is the crucial part to understand that separates modern ordinary contracts, rental agreements, jobs or simple buying and selling from pre-capitalist feudalism.

To say that the present is just a softened and disguised version of this isn't truthful. It's not a human right to own a smartphone and if the app providers sell that info gotten from you using the app, it really doesn't make you a serf. You are not obliged to take a bank loan. That the pay isn't good and you have a shitty job contract really isn't equivalent to real serfdom. We simply have this urge to portray this time as bad as it was earlier because we take all the freedoms and liberties totally granted as natural rights. When we see that things don't work, when poor people can be pushed around some jump to the conclusion that this is serfdom. It might look as if serfdom, but it isn't true serfdom. We forget that there wasn't democracy and the rights of the individual were quite few.

But of course, some are willing to make this argument that absolutely nothing has happened at all and invent definitions like corporate feudalism as below:



But it's simply rhetoric, just like saying that the US under Trump is a fascist country (or would be socialist under Bernie Sanders).

The modern stress is that everything is up for judgement and control, your body-shape, how much you drink eat, fart, everything you say Did I hear the N word? Did you take a piss somewhere you shouldn't? Are you obese, or is that a suicide belt you're wearing? The mere power of life and death is a small thing. — unenlightened

Umm... you think those are caused by our rulers or governments?

Most what you listed there are obviously societal norms, not exactly laws or regulations. I gather there were norms before too. In fact, one could argue that the societal norms were more strict earlier. When is the last time you have heard university students having a duel because they had a disagreement?

you think those are caused by our rulers or governments? — ssu

No, I don't, particularly. What I do think is we lead more regulated lives and less physically active lives, and these produce more stress. Governments play a part, but mainly by their incompetence and uncaring; it's not by design, but by failure to mitigate. But Consumerism does deliberately multiply stress because discontent drives sales. Nobody will take you seriously if you don't use Dr Foul's patent beard oil!

What I do think is we lead more regulated lives and less physically active lives, and these produce more stress. — unenlightened

Compared to 1980's or 1990's I agree. This regulation happened because of a) 9/11 and b) social media, the woke nonsense & me too etc. Next regulation is happening just now with the present pandemic.

Still, I think that compared to pre WWI era I think then it was WAY more strict.

They are..

We don't follow a moral objective, we are taught, false, Government morals. Christianity mix with individuality, is the Government's idea of good.

As stated in another thread, no man judges what's moral without noting everyone, and what the Gov is teaching is a man making this false judgement.

'Good is not killing, good is pleasure, etc.' because individuals profit from it.

'You can kill/suppress great evil; pain/toil can lead to paradise'.

Anything not to reverse the current status quo for the rich and powerful egos.

(Not to say these folks wouldn't change if we all did - the times are harsh - the Gov ain't heartless)

If it's the regular, habitual human response to certain environmental forces why would it not be a cause? How does the body remain outside, for example, a determinism including it's being affected on by the world. If we want to technical we could say that someone bleeding out from a knife wound is caused by the heart pumping blood to that limb. Or that corona does not cause any deaths. Or that solitary confinement has no effect on a person's pscyhological well being. I don't think we should say those things however.

For instance, two people can be in the same environment, with one perceiving a threat while the other doesn’t. Only one will experience the stress. If they are both in the same environment and in the presence of the same environmental forces, why don’t they both experience stress? Because one perceived and interpreted a threat and one didn’t—because stress begins in the brain.

c Sure that happens. But that doesn't mean that stress starts in the brain. Or do you think child abuse is ok? Some children will grow up to be fine, non-ptsd adults. Some will suffer the effects the rest of their lives. Is sex with your child ok, because you didn't cause the pain and later suffering, because their are exceptions and some children don't seem to suffer during it?

If I release a pathogen that causes a massive immune system overreaction in most people, but not all, and you die. Am I innocent of a crime because it was your immune system and because some other bodies do not react that way? Would a person doing that to you be, then, innocent of a crime since they did not cause anything?

I notice you did not respond to the limb or solitary confinement examples. You reiterated your positins.

Stress, as a biological phenomenon, starts in the brain. This is a biological fact. No, this does not imply child abuse is ok or that abuse is not really abuse. No, it does not imply you would be innocent of murder. No it does not imply solitary confinement is not a stressful situation.

The only meaningful example you could give to support your position would be that of a human being who would not experience stress under any circumstances.

The only meaningful example you could give to support your position would be that of a human being who would not experience stress under any circumstances.

Or someone unaware of a threat. I was just watching a videos of a woman swimming in the ocean, and underneath her swam orcas. She originally thought they were dolphins, but it wasn’t until she realized they were orcas did the fight or flight response kick in.

Another meaningless example.

An extreme (or stupid) position requires extreme support.

Another meaningless example.

An extreme (or stupid) position requires extreme support.

Simply calling it meaningless is itself meaningless without giving a reason why.

Stress, as a biological phenomenon, starts in the brain. This is a biological fact. — NOS4A2

A person may be conditioned to not be fearful of swimming with orcas, or at least be much less fearful than others.



Does instinct and conditioning also begin in the brain?

A person is a body, and bodies can be conditioned to do many things, including coping with stressful situations. A person conditioned to swimming with Orcas may have less stress in that situation, but that isn’t because the situation was different, but because the body is.

This isn’t an extreme position, either, but simple biology.