It's the way in which criticism is generated which bugs me, all the time (both on the left and on the right) you see people set up a caricature of their opponents and attacking them on that basis. It's odd that those who tend to claim moral superiority are so often inclined to judge everyone who doesn't share their opinion while not realising that they place their own values onto those who are unable to do anything with these values. — Gooseone
That's not a straw man I'm afraid. I highlighted an example. Or do you insist that every argument is conclusive and concise to the point where I'd have to take 5 days to write an essay. If your point was, Eqypt isn't the only majority muslim country in the region that practise FGM, then say so. Instead you go "straw man", when it really wasn't. That made it a stupid conversation. — Benkei
There's more issues surrounding this, because most people do not receive and practice customs based on textual evidence but on the actions and expectation of their surroundings. Much the same that most Westerners aren't Christian any more but do believe in, for instance, the Christian work ethic. Or arbitration and impartiality as a requirement for fair judgments (also an ecclesiastical invention). So when people practice FGM, it isn't because they've done an extensive study of the Qu'ran and hadith and wonder whether it's the "islamic" thing to do. They basically do it because everybody around them does it and expects them to do it too. — Benkei
Also, speaking of straw men, I said she claimed FGM was a Muslim problem and took issue with that, which is different than claiming there are links between FGM and Islam as you state it (still incorrect, but closer to the mark). — Benkei
I was going to act as a legal advisor to her at one point, because I felt strongly about FGM as well and thought it was great someone from her background would take up this cause. She had a habit to propose things that were legally unfeasible and I was supposed to help her formulate steps that fit in the existing legal system. Unfortunately, she turned out to be more interested in being shocking (and polarising the debate) than actually implementing effective policies. She made a conscious choice at some point to chose form over function and that's where I exited stage left. — Benkei
Then you are unaware of the historical developments in this area. There was a time that Islamic women could divorce and receive part of the estate, when us Westerners treated women as a thing to be owned. The thin veneer of respectibility we shroud ourselves with to feel superior is easily lost. 2 world wars in the "enlightened world" is proof enough. Human beings are animals if we do not continually make the effort to be more than just animals and it's only too easy not to make the effort, when we perceive it not costing us anything (except our humanity).
The point being, these things are in flux and I don't think the human race has progressed morally in any way as compared to 4000 years ago. — Benkei
The problem with hypocrisy I've seen is that our brains can't handle the cognitive dissonance for long. It seems that people will eventually settle on an extreme side of the issue, while seeing the other side as a fantasy. — swstephe
There's that (very much so!) and, like people organizing in groups, there are probably a bunch of other innate tendencies which make it easy / pragmatic for people to take on a specific stance — Gooseone
I see that false equivalencies are alive and well in these debates. The fact that you call women in the West "oppressed" and equate said oppression to the treatment of women under a number of Muslim-majority countries is spurious at best. Women in the United States live longer, graduate college at greater numbers, and best men in any number of metrics. But because they, say, make roughly 93 cents to the man's dollar, this is equivalent to the stoning to death of female adulterers.We can ignore all the oppression we put women under at home, or how our treatment of the target country might have brought about the very conditions we are fighting -- and go on a sacred crusade against the infidels. I'm also sure the extremists on the other side are thinking the very same thing. "Those westerners are oppressing their women by dressing them up like porn stars, we have a holy mission to rescue them". The problem with hypocrisy I've seen is that our brains can't handle the cognitive dissonance for long. — swstephe
No, it's a good example of a false equivalency, which speaks to my point. Yes, in the U.S. some rapists are given light sentences, and military has a problem with institutional procedures relating to rape (by the way, the stats on male rape in the military are likewise depressing; this problem is by no means confined to the treatment of women.) And in some Muslim-majority countries, the female victim is persecuted for being raped! There is clearly an asymmetry here, despite your rhetorical attempts to conflate them. (I will be charitable in my reading of your post to not take it as saying that I personally have oppressed women in my own country, though your wording was a bit sloppy.)This might be a good example of my point. Maybe at some point, you may have gotten a vague impression of a contradiction with fighting for women's rights in Saudi Arabia, while simultaneously oppressing women in your own country. So you broke that cognitive dissonance by denying that your society is oppressing women at all. It goes much deeper than wage inequality. Every week, the news comes out with a story about how a woman was raped, and the rapist gets away with a really minor sentence, while many leaders say "she was asking for it by her behavior". It is especially bad in the military, (chances of being raped has been estimated at 1 in 3). — swstephe
Even when they do treat it as murder, it is ignored by "traditionalists" and (god help me that I have to say this in the year 2016) tribal leaders.Isn't that essentially what is wrong with "honor killing", that the officials in that country don't treat it as murder, like they would in the modern west?
Ah, yes, the "well, practice X preceded Islam, and therefore its practice cannot be a result of Islamic doctrine" defense. Sorry, Islam may not have invented honor killing, but in the 21st century, if there's honor killing afoot, the perpetrator is almost always Muslim. Italians, not so much.Take a look at any historical reference and you will see that "honor killing", started with Augustus Caesar's, "Lex Julia de adulteriis coercendis", and carried around Europe as part of Napoleonic code. I agree that FGM, honor killing, forced marriages, etc is evil and must be stopped, but it is easier to do by reinforcing identity than seeking to destroy it.
Yes, and Nazis no doubt regarded the Allies as morally execrable as the Allies did the Nazis. What of it? The mere fact that each side may demonize the other in a dispute somehow implies that both opinions are equally valid? I highly doubt you'd say something like this, but your point eludes me.I put that statement about western women dressing up like porn stars in quotes because that is what people in strict Islamic countries are saying, not me.
I notice your underhanded rhetorical jab about my statement being an "excuse." It's not an "excuse," it's simply a fact: women in the United States (outside of employer-mandated dress codes, which apply to men, as well, and statutes regarding public nudity and so forth) choose to dress themselves. They are not forced by threat of violent reprisal to drape themselves in black bags with a slit cut into them.I also know that they would use the same excuse as you do, that most do it out of choice and for complex social interactions, not because it is strictly enforced.
Yea, more false equivalency. The claim that women's going topless is morally and legally condemned in some quarters is akin to forcing women to live in a black bag (in a desert climate, no less) holds no water.After living in a Muslim majority country, then coming back to the US, I was impressed how similar was the controversy over American women going topless during the "free the nipple" campaign, (ironically protests were carried out where it wasn't illegal). The west certainly has a lot to say about how women dress in their society, just look at how any female public figure is judged more by appearance than political views.
I politely point out how those practices were not Islamic and were actually introduced by European colonialists centuries ago — swstephe
So I believe I've actually helped those victims. — swstephe
She was actually a bit of a feminist and thought it helped avoid the "male gaze" of objectifying women. — swstephe
I thought it was funny, because to follow that law to the letter, it would mean I would have to walk around without pants! — swstephe
That reminded me that I really have no say over how someone else is supposed to think, and no right to think I have some kind of moral obligation to force people to change their minds. — swstephe
Male circumcision was Jewish and wasn't embraced by Gentiles until early to mid 20th Century unless I'm mistaken. If the transmission of the custom happened as you describe... is there evidence of this? — Mongrel
For whatever it's worth, I agree that I dislike burqas. I also disagree with general burqa bans (excepting particular circumstances such as driver's license photos, workplace dress rules, etc). I believe that people should be permitted to engage in foolish, demeaning behavior if they so choose, without laws preventing them from doing so (and no, I don't find the rhetoric of some apologists that the burqa is "liberating" for women to be persuasive: a prison is never liberating, even if said prison is made of cloth).The emphasis on the burqa is interesting, It is very Othering. Some French people find it - but nothing about the way the supposedly oppressive male Muslims dress - so offensive they want to ban it.
I really dislike it too, very occasionally in Bradford I'll pass a woman wearing and it gives me the creeps.
It's not the sort of thing to go to war over, though. Islamic women aren't Other, they're my fellow students, my wife's co workers, strangers in the next street, bbc newsreaders, local councillors. Mostly round here they wear Western dress, or lots of variants on discrete dressing that are nevertheless colourful and fashionable. I have no cause for war with their religion, although in religious debate I explain I'm an atheist. It seems that in common with women in both Iran and Saudi, British Asian women outnumber men as graduates these days. Perhaps big changes are bubbling up while all this warlike rhetoric is being exchanged. — mcdoodle
I've already explained what's wrong with this sophistry. It is possible to acknowledge the misogyny and gender inequality in one's own country (the U.S. in my case) while decrying the far worse plight of women in some Muslim-majority countries (such as Saudi Arabia, which we've been discussing here**). This is nothing like a case of "cognitive dissonance," as you've claimed: cognitive dissonance in this case would amount to dismissing, ignoring, or even favoring gender discrimination in one's own culture, while also decrying it in others' (including in Muslim-majority nations). That's not the case here.So I am accusing these Mullahs of falling victim to a "white savior complex" mentality, (which can actually affect anyone of any race or gender -- so not the best name). The symptoms are a commitment to dismissing the possibility of oppression in their own back-yard. — swstephe
For whatever it's worth, I agree that I dislike burqas. I also disagree with general burqa bans (excepting particular circumstances such as driver's license photos, workplace dress rules, etc). I believe that people should be permitted to engage in foolish, demeaning behavior if they so choose, without laws preventing them from doing so (and no, I don't find the rhetoric of some apologists that the burqa is "liberating" for women to be persuasive: a prison is never liberating, even if said prison is made of cloth). — Arkady
The Dutch were the primary European colonial power. Not many seem to be aware of it, but the Dutch were unusually contemptuous of and cruel to the people of the regions they colonized, even by European standards. The Boers were Dutch settlers.Wasn't Indonesia dominated by the French? There is no culture on the planet that is further from American sensibilities about food than the French. — Mongrel
I've read that the Dutch aren't forthcoming about the history of their treatment of native peoples, and have taken legal action against those who have published accounts related to their rule in Indonesia. There have been articles in the English press about it. Those articles seem to take some pleasure in noting that the Dutch, though quick to condemn the violation of human rights by other nations, try to silence those who refer to their own conduct in that area. Perhaps the English are exaggerating. — Ciceronianus the White
I've already explained what's wrong with this sophistry. It is possible to acknowledge the misogyny and gender equality in one's own country (the U.S. in my case) while decrying the far worse plight of women in some Muslim-majority countries (such as Saudi Arabia, which we've been discussing here**). This is nothing like a case of "cognitive dissonance," as you've claimed: cognitive dissonance in this case would amount to dismissing, ignoring, or even favoring gender discrimination in one's own culture, while also decrying it in others' (including in Muslim-majority nations). That's not the case here. — Arkady
Your plaints about "white savior complex" are little different than cries of "Islamophobia" in such discussions: it serves only to deflect and discourage criticism by implying some sort of racism or white paternalistic/colonial mindset without at all engaging in honest discussion. It is good propaganda; it is, however, a poor way to do philosophy. — Arkady
That being said, is this turn of the thread supposed to to invigorate "white saviour complex / white guilt" or something? The Indonesian mass killings in 1965-66 weren't exactly pretty, as was the Rwandese genocide. The role of the UN in the latter can be debated, as can the role of the Dutch in Screbrenica ..."damned if you do, damned if you don't".
I would not want to make the latter imply as if I'm making an excuse for the Indonesian atrocities, but it does shine a nice light on "moral relativism". And yes, questions can (and should be!) posed towards the previous interference of western nations in non-western continents which might have laid the groundwork for these atrocities to happen but then? — Gooseone
Uh, what? "Shadowy conspiracies"? Unfortunately, there's nothing "shadowy" about the shrill cries of "Islamophobia" every time it is suggested that, just maybe, certain cultures or groups should saw off just a few less limbs as punishment for petty theft, or throw just a few less gay people off of rooftops or hang them from cranes in public squares.The classic example: you believe smoking is bad for your health, but you like to smoke. That creates cognitive dissonance, a contradiction between belief and action. There are several ways the brain tries to deal with it. It can simply minimize the health effects of smoking, or to trivialize the desire to smoke. That's what most people would do with such a conflict. But there are also extreme positions appeals to shadowy conspiracies to eliminate one side of the conflict. — swstephe
Sure, you admit that they happen. But you seem to deny the role of Islam in certain of these practices (though I will give Islam a pass when it comes to male circumcision...).I'm not discouraging criticism. I criticize FGM and even male circumcision, forced marriages or child marriages. I admit that they happen.
<Sigh> Why is it nearly exclusively in the realm of religion that one's beliefs must be "respected?" In nearly every other domain, beliefs are scrutinized, analyzed, and criticized, but religious beliefs must be "respected", for some reason. I'm not certain I even know how to respect a belief (a person, certainly, or an institution, but a belief?). The best I can do is be as objective as possible in analyzing them.I just think if you really want to do something about it, you politely reason with people and respect their identity and beliefs.
People have greater reason to fear Muslims than they do, say, Quakers, Unitarians, or Episcopalians. They have greater reason because Muslims have given them such reasons. In the modern world, not all religions inspire doctrinally-driven acts of terror at equal rates, nor do all religions produce equal proportions of violent radicals.Islamophobia works on hatred and fear. It looks just like the days of the "Red Scare" which kept pointing to irrational fear to drive people into throwing out reason or any chance of dialog. The white savior complex is also real, (and just as much on the "left" as the "right"). It plays on feelings of compassion and generosity, but without thinking how it affects the target of those feelings. In NGO circles, there are many talks about how too much charity can disrupt an economy as much as a disaster.
Yes, I agree that the West has gotten in bed with some rather unsavory regimes in order to further their own economic and political interests. However, it is an extreme interpretation of Islamic doctrine, not the meddling of Western powers, which is responsible for the myriad human rights abuses (both the rare and grotesque, and the more day-to-day) in Saudi Arabia. If tomorrow Saudi Arabia announced that it would, for instance, abolish public beheadings, I doubt that said announcement would be met with howls of protest in the halls of power in Berlin, Washington DC, or London.**To wit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/five-things-that-saudi-arabian-women-still-cannot-do-a6765666.html — Arkady
You won't get any argument from me. Saudi Arabia is a bit of an extreme example, though, and most Muslims around the world complain and shake their heads -- but feel like nothing can be done as long as the rest of the world backs them up for oil. I haven't been to Saudi Arabia myself, but I did sponsor an Austrian guy and his wife who were driving from Europe to South-East Asia. They got pulled over by the police in Jeddah because they thought his wife was driving. The police opened the door, then stood there stunned when he didn't see a steering wheel in front of her. The Austrian guy said, "looking for this officer"? It was a right-hand drive car, like the UK, not left-hand like Saudi and the US. But things are rapidly getting betted since King Abdullah died. A prince there said that he thought women should be able to drive legally, (and royal opinion is basically law there). Actually, women can and do drive in remote areas. Also, there are many ways of going around without a member of their family. I've been told there are many different levels of society. There are the royals, the loyal government workers, the regular Saudi, who has 100s of ways to get around the rules, then there are many villages which have been ignored for historical reasons who still don't have electricity. If you really want to fight these problems, I'm all in favor of economic and political sanctions out of concerns for human rights -- but of course, most people will just expect them to become BFF with China and Russia then. Ultimately, it is the west that is supporting that treatment. It was the British who brought the Saud family there in the first place, and we give them money and weapons to crush or bribe any attempt at democracy or overthrowing them.
Yes. It is difficult to find historical examples of a truly benevolent empire. I just don't think there's any such thing (even if colonialism has had some positive impacts in some cases).The Dutch were the primary European colonial power. Not many seem to be aware of it, but the Dutch were unusually contemptuous of and cruel to the people of the regions they colonized, even by European standards. — Ciceronianus the White
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