Let's assume, if we can, an unexamined life is not worth living — Zeus

Well then who would you like to examine your life?

If you conclude that one cannot, you would surely want to admit that this came from the examination of life. Therefore, one can examine one's life, but perhaps not 'truly'.

But whenever one finds words such as 'truly', 'absolute' and the like, one can expect a question of the general form "If I set an impossible goal, can it ever be reached?' Which is - on examination, a concocted reason for not making an effort.

Yes, while one would agree that 'truly' and 'absolute' are dangerous terms to use, what concerns me is the obvious limitation of thought. J. Krishnamurti has penned it quite well. He says, thought in itself is contradictory. And there's quite a substance to that, I feel, because if my mind is conflicted then I can't possibly resolve that conflict by thinking about it or by analysing it because my thinking in itself is contradictory and conflicted. I can not resolve conflict with conflict. So, if one is willing to accept that (can be debated), then how can we examine our lives? Surely not by self-analysis because that, as may be seen, is one contradictory fragment of thought dissecting another equally contradicting fragment giving rise to more fragments. So, what do I do?

I would like to do it myself. But, how do I go about it? I see my thoughts are conditioned and contradictory so, any kind of self-analysis I feel will yield unfruitful results. I am tempted to say, that I can examine myself in regards to my relationship to others, as Viktor Frankl proposes. But, I am not quite convinced.

I see my thoughts are conditioned and contradictory so, any kind of self-analysis I feel will yield unfruitful results — Zeus

You are not trying, more effort is needed. What is learning? Do you learn when you get things right, or when you get them wrong? Learn like a child. Or do you just want the answers? The answers are useless unless you know why the answer is the answer. Do not use others as a reflection of who you are or what you are, they (and I) don't know any better than you! Just maybe been here a bit longer, that's all. Don't care too much about what people think, it's a trap and will crush your soul.

Imagine a child learning to walk said the same thing? "I know I can't walk yet and crawling around is hard. Nobody tells me how to do it. Every time I try and stand up, I fall over again. Perhaps I shouldn't bother trying to standing up."

Change the attitude to, "I never know what will happen because life is in constant change. However, whatever life throws at me, I will always try my best. I will do a bit more than I'm asked to. I will try a bit harder than I did before. I'll keep trying and I'll never give up. If it doesn't work, I'll try something else, I'll keep trying because one time it's going to work (50 no's and a Yes = a Yes!). I will help others. If someone falls and I see it, I will help them up because if I fall I'd like someone to help me up. If people are hurt, I'll comfort them. I will always tell the truth. When I go to sleep (whenever that is) I will ask myself, did I try my best today in the things I did and then promise to try even harder tomorrow. I will look back on my day as I drift off to sleep. I wont complain about any of it, some lessons are suppose to be hard. If I give up, I'm dead, put me in a box."

Your first statement is right, how many people are kicking their heels at the start line. Get your life in balance. How? What ever you feel, do the opposite to the same degree. If you feel sad, do things that make you happy. If you want something really bad, give it to someone else. Treat life like you'd like to be treated by life. Balance is the opposite to what is, so be observant and keep an open mind. What you think today, will be different tomorrow and different again the day after. We never know what will happen, so don't hold tight to your ideas or positions, they will all pass into other ideas and positions. If you hold them tight, they will hold you tight and you will be trapped (anchored by them). Be prepared to give up what you previously thought at any point, or life cannot help you grow.

Listen to the words (often) of the song, "Everybody's Free (To Wear Sunscreen)"

And there's quite a substance to that, I feel — Zeus

Then investigate it. Play with it, test it. But in all this, keep your enquiry straight and true. He said "contradictory", you said, "conflicted". Investigate them both and make sure they are the same. There might be a very subtle difference between the two, and that difference could be where your stuck. Or not. You got to do the work and test everything, especially you must test what "you think you know" because as you highlight, its where the "conflict" could be. We are all learners at life.

I think humanity as a whole is in a perpetual state of disillusionment. Self important mechanisms, ideologies, and systems that bring existence down to a place that is palpable for our level conscious understanding.

Very beautifully articulated.

I will help others. If someone falls and I see it, I will help them up because if I fall I'd like someone to help me up. If people are hurt, I'll comfort them. — Antidote

This struck home. I do wonder sometimes if all answers lie in compassion. Sometimes, everything does seem extraordinarily clear and simple. I guess deep down, we all know that to be true but, we are not very observant. I see this in myself. I see that I am neurotic when I perpetuate my selfish needs unthinkingly. And I see this neurosis in everybody. I guess it takes an extremely serious person to go beyond the mind's evil patterns, to cut through generations of conditioning and be a child again and question first principles.

If you want something really bad, give it to someone else. — Antidote

This resonates. Much of examination lies in action, I feel. Right action trumps everything and brings about peace and I am trying to be more aware of actions which light something up in my core of being, a flame of sorts, a divine energy (if there's such a thing).

Let's assume, if we can, an unexamined life is not worth living. But, can one truly examine one's life? Our life is the sum-total of our social and cultural milieu. So, with the limited data that we have can we be sure we're examining our lives properly? Is understanding in the perview of thought and conscienceness? Will logic and analysis help us understand life or is there a different dimension one needs to get in touch with? — Zeus

Well, self-examination is basically you being yourself and also the mirror you look at yourself with. The mirror is only as good as you are: your prejudices will determine what you see in yourself. That's a bummer!

However the desire for self-examination will probably be accompanied by an appreciation of a good method to do it with viz. logic. So, when you wish to conduct this exercise of self-discovery you already have a basic grasp of the right tool to use. A fruitful inquiry seems almost inevitable.

That said, a distorted image of the self, arising from viewing yourself from the lens of your own prejudices isn't such a bad idea; after all, it is a unique perspective and being so it has value.

I guess it takes an extremely serious person to go beyond the mind's evil patterns, to cut through generations of conditioning and be a child again and question first principles. — Zeus

You're replies and humility touched me, thank you, as I said, I know no better than anyone else. I'm really simple that's all. There is a time to be serious but in general don't be too serious. Be like a child. Is a child serious? In some ways yes, but it most ways, no. They are just open. They learn quicker and in greater volume than adults, and all the time they are suffering pain with teething, and growing and what have you. They are amazing teachers to those who have open eyes. Don't take on too much all at once either, your not dealing with your generations problems, you only have to deal with your own, keep it simple. No one really knows you, and definitely not like you know yourself, so make sure you are honest with your self.

I'm simple, I know that when it hurts, it doesn't feel good. When I'm kind or caring, it feels good. Its very easy to over complicate everything, but everything is really simple really! I would recommend you follow your feelings and get to know them (not your emotions, don't follow them). Follow your heart, it is much wiser than your head! And protect your heart, it's important to you, don't let it get hardened so your can't feel it or hear (sense) it otherwise you truly will be blind.

There are a lot of painful things and people out there, and they will often try and convince you how awful things are. Don't let that sink into your heart. You know the condition is one of suffering out there, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that out, just look around. But just because that's the outside condition, doesn't mean it needs to be the inside condition. My wife and I say to each other, if we lose site of this, "Don't let someone else behaviour be the reason for your behaviour". As humility grows, you can really empathise with people who are full of hate, because imagine you were like that and the pain you would be carrying around with you. If there encourage you to be unkind and what have you, don't engage. Be an example to them by keeping silent, because they will look at your silence and question there own reasons for being unkind, and then they might actually stop being unkind. We all influence each other, be it for good or bad, that depends on you. My experience has taught me I feel better inside when I do good things, and worse if I don't.

Study things that help you grow. The Buddhist had a pretty good grasp on all this, albeit from a negation perspective, but there are tons of others out who also get it. Eckhart Tolle is one, Jon Peniel, "Children of the Law of One" he gets it. And the message is the same every time, "Be simple, be kind, be caring, be compassionate, put others before yourself". The rewards are out of this world !!

Don't be too hard on yourself either, we are all mad in the outside world, that's obviously clear. But the bit in you that recognises it, is the sane bit. That's the bit to hold to. A man asked the doctor, "Doctor, I think I'm insane". The doctors said, "No sir, insane people don't know they are insane". Rather comforting I thought, when life is teaching the harder lessons in life. When things are really tough, remind yourself, "This too, will pass". It help to lighten the load.

I do wonder sometimes if all answers lie in compassion — Zeus

Absolutely right, so again, investigate it. Look to those who have talked about, what else do they have to say. You are unique, just like everyone else on the planet !!

We see disillusionment in the world but some wise guy once advised me to see the disillusionment in oneself. That changed everything. I guess that made me more tolerant. Ideologies, systems are a way of enslaving mankind, I feel. We are fed through our schools and universities and media an assortment of ideologies, authorities, faiths and we unthinkingly fall into the trap of making a choice. Then we fight all other ideologies. We find our peace in our chosen ideology and declare destruction (however implicitly) of anything that stands against us. This has been the norm since generations. Every once in a while, a great thinker will be born who will question the status quo and will try a hand at self-discovery without getting influenced by existing systems. And hence, from him a new ideology, a new idea will be born and that will amass popularity (or not). So, in the end, what does man truly want? And, is that even an important question?

I guess deep down, we all know that to be true but, we are not very observant. — Zeus

This is the problem for sure. We are not really creators in life, we are discovers. We are rediscovering what we always knew. A famous chap once said, "Alas, I have searched the entire globe and there is nothing new to discover."

Last one I promise, I just had to share this. It's not mine, I take no credit:

There was a man who died and was being taken to heaven by angels. The angels said to him, “We are going to take you to heaven, but first we will show you hell.” The angels then took him to a place where there was a great bowl, so great that it was as big as a lake. The bowl was filled with a nutritious stew. All the way around the sides of this bowl were people. Emaciated, starving, miserable people. These people had spoons to eat the stew with, and the spoons were long enough to reach the stew (about 12 feet). The trouble was, while they could scoop up the stew into the spoon, they could not get it into their mouths because the spoons were too long. So here were all these pathetic people, suffering and moaning in agony, constantly trying to eat the food that was abundantly in front of them - all in vain.
Next, the angels took the man to heaven. To his surprise, he saw the same scene! There it was, a giant lake-like bowl of the same stew, surrounded by people with 12 foot long spoons. Yet something was different here - all these people were smiling, happy, and healthy looking! “Why? What is the difference here that these people are happy and well fed?”, the man said to the angels. They replied, “Have you not eyes to see?”. The man looked more carefully, and observed that one person would scoop up the stew, and bring it to the mouth of another. Then someone else would scoop up stew and feed it to the other. The angels smiled and said, “Here the people feed each other. Here are the people that learned the way of Love.”

Let's assume, if we can, an unexamined life is not worth living. But, can one truly examine one's life?

This is where the Advaita gurus might say something like, "Who is examining what?" ...in other words, when you talk about "one" examining "one's" life, who is the "one" who does the examining, actually?

It's that old wisdom about how we're deluded into thinking this seemingly separate, self-determining, egoic self is who we are, and how we lose sight of who we really are at the deepest level - the great I Am, non-dual, undivided.

I'd say that if we examine our lives with that higher awareness of the nature of our being as a starting point, everything changes. :)

self-examination is basically you being yourself and also the mirror you look at yourself with. The mirror is only as good as you are: your prejudices will determine what you see in yourself — TheMadFool

Does that imply finally coming to terms with the way you are? I'm sorry, but could you elaborate on this? I am prejudiced implies, for example, I hold one ideal superior to another or one virtue superior to another. It implies, does it not, that I have a rigid mind? That there are distinct blacks and distinct whites. Now, I wonder if such a mind is capable of self examination, because, my prejudices, my biases, my neurotic ideosyncracies are the products of the age and place I dwell in. It's, simply put, downloaded data. Most importantly, it's just data, raw facts. And, can facts help me know who I truly am? On the other hand, if one sees that he is prejudiced and says, well, I don't recognize with my prejudices, I don't know what I am, but I am certainly not my prejudices, isn't that a good place to start? I say, I don't know what I am, but I want to find out.

Last one I promise, — Antidote

Yes, this is it. But, too many people have lost reception. I have seen this in myself. I will be so self-absorbed at times that Ave Maria will fail to move me. So, is that the problem? That we are losing reception? That we are so far from beauty and love that we have to ask questions like, who am I? Are we so lost? And that is true even for suffering. We are scared to feel loved, we are scared to suffer. We just want to numb ourselves with booze or sex. I don't know, but, love is dead. Beauty is a textbook terminology. We don't feel anymore. We refuse to feel. Feelings are bad for capitalism. Economics teaches us to be a-holes, literally. And we conform and then we suffer and then we complain.

I'd say that if we examine our lives with that higher awareness of the nature of our being as a starting point, everything changes. — Iamthatiam

Absolutely. I see your point. Can we go into this? This higher awareness, don't you think, have catastrophic implications? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, either I'm a Adi Shankara or I'm a self-absorbed, egotistic, opportunistic person. There's no in-between. I may say I am a philanthropist, I donate to charity, I am concerned about social well-being, but, I have the self-serving seed planted in me and as long as that is the case, do I really understand higher awareness? Higher awareness implies, does it not, rightful action in every sphere of life. But, in today's day and age, is that possible?

You have to remember than I'm no different to you and do not have all the answers, I'm just working it through. We are not far from anything, and we are not so lost - we are blind which means we dont see teh hand in front of us. Beauty is right next to you, love is in your pocket. Think about it. If you are asking the question, "Who am I" then surely the question itself shows your lost or blind? Start from there.

Suffering is the teacher, and she can be hard, especially if you don't listen to her. Everything is anew at all times. The moment is always fresh. However, there are competing "urges" or "pulls" on you. Should you find a partner for sex, or a partner for love? Should you give to the poor, or keep it yourself (after all, you might need it). We are constantly pulled in opposite directions, if you choose to go with one, you exclude the other. Its like having the Angel and the Devil on your shoulders, each whispering to you what to do. The devil always seems exciting and fun and everyone tells you he knows what's good and is fun and ace, YEAH! But when you follow him, it feels bad. Your heart knows its not right and your heart is always faithful to you, no matter how much crap you give it, in life it will not give up on you unless you harden your heart.

When you follow the angel, your friends say your boring, and your no fun anymore and may even stop being your friend. That's their devil on their shoulder trying to persuade you.

But if you carefully look at this, those people who drop away from you, were the nasty ones. They follow the devil on the shoulder more often than not. You may then go through a short period of aloneness or what have you (if all your friend are little devils!), but then something will happen. Nice people will start coming into your life, the kind, the caring, the sharers, etc.

Again, don't try to take on the problems of the world, its way too much for one person, just work on getting yourself fixed. Once your fixed, then you can fix the world! Get the order right and you will prosper and benefit well, or if you haven't quite got it right, then you'll get a lesson instead, and that's fine because that means you have learned and your getting better !

When love is dead, we will most certainly know about it. Everything will stop growing, and everyone will die and the sun probably wont even come up. In fact, this time of year is like no other, spring is here and growth is beginning to show. So no, love is not dead. If you have turned from love (had a broken heart in the past, whatever) then all that has happened is you don't pay attention to love anymore. That's a very different matter, but in lies the most amazing hope - if you turned from love, then you can turn back. Use the power of forgiveness for yourself, and for others and see how easy it is to let go of the pain you may have been carrying. Then be humble and compassionate, keeping others in mind.

Love overcomes all things. Once you find love (or rediscover it), make sure you give it away because here in lies the beauty. The more you give it, the more you get of it (not from others, but in the very act of giving it). It may sound odd, but try it for yourself, give yourself the chance to love.

So, what do I do? — Zeus

If I were you, I'd go to a psychologist, and get a battery of personality tests done. Then listen to the analysis by the psychologist.

I appreciate that this is not self-examination, but you just said that that is impossible. So the next best thing to self analysis, is an analysis by others and then hearing it from them what you are like. It's analysis, and whether you stick a "self-" before the term "analysis" or not, the outcome is the same.

You could also go to a soothsayer, or to a psychic advisor, or to horroscope charter, or to Thailand and have sex day in and day out. All boils down to self-learning, via others.

an unexamined life is not worth living

I know that Aristotle said this. But is there any punch behind it that drives it home, other than the person's authority who penned this?

I mean, why would an unexamined life not be worth living? and even if it is better to have your life examined, is it necessary to be done by the subject himself or herself?

And what does Aristotle mean, "the unexamined life"? The unpondered life? the finding of differences or similarities with the norm or with the norm as perceived by the examiner? You can't compare yourself to yourself and find out anything about yourself that way, you need a benchmark other than yourself.

It think Aristotle meant to say with this, "you cretins, I say anything and you take it as gospel. Okay, if you want to play that game," continues Aristotle, "then verily I say unto you: the unexamined life is not worth living." And walks away laughing aloud, bending over from the vehemence of his laughter to his own joke.

You could also go to a soothsayer, or to a psychic advisor, or to horroscope charter, or to Thailand and have sex day in and day out. All boils down to self-learning, via others.
9m — god must be atheist

Yeah, sounds about right. Nice little twist. This certainly doesn't call for further clarifications.

So, what do I do? — Zeus

Krishnamurti, he da man. Do you mean 'what do I do?', or 'what does thought do?'?
Because thought will always think about it and try to answer the question it has itself created. Perhaps we can say that the examination of life is not a matter of thinking about it, even though the question that gives rise to it arises in thought?

Quite right. So, if not thought, what have we? If examination is not thinking about it, what other faculty can we use? So then, Krishnamurti argues, the silent mind and the attentive mind can come upon the eternal, the timeless. And from this silence emanates truth. This silence is like the Greek "daemon", guiding man at every step of the way. But, this is merely literature. Don't know if anyone has a lived experience.

But, this is merely literature. Don't know if anyone has a lived experience. — Zeus

There is only literature on this site, never lived experience. But all of us have a lived experience even we disregard it. Here is the literature of our conversation, but also, we are actually discussing together, and it is at least possible that there is a silent space in which you or I or anyone might read this. I'm looking for it, so I must be quiet...

So, what do I do? — Zeus

When looking too far forward seems too much, shorten your sights. You don't need to create a life plan all in one go, that's not how it has to work. Yes have a direction, but take it one step at a time. Take a step towards something that interests you. Then pause, see how you feel and then make another step.

The journey is progressive. Each step widens your horizon, gives you more knowledge and changes they way you feel about life. So at each step, re-evaluate what you learned and where the next step you thought you wanted to take, really still is the one you want to take. If it, then take it. If its not, come up with a new direction based on what you know now, and take a different step. This makes you dynamic and flexible.

Some people do make a life plan, and that's totally fine for them. They stick to it, and enjoy it. Otherwise don't. They need more flexibility because they are searching for something else. Do you feel more comfortable being fixed, or flexible? Most of my friends still don't know what they want out of life, and they are the most interesting people I know.

Life is a journey not an assignment. Maybe you will find your life purpose, maybe you won't but either way you are on the journey so enjoy it and do things that make you feel good. Find you passion.

Does that imply finally coming to terms with the way you are? I'm sorry, but could you elaborate on this? I am prejudiced implies, for example, I hold one ideal superior to another or one virtue superior to another. It implies, does it not, that I have a rigid mind? That there are distinct blacks and distinct whites. Now, I wonder if such a mind is capable of self examination, because, my prejudices, my biases, my neurotic ideosyncracies is the product of the age and place I dwell in. It's, simply put, downloaded data. Most importantly, it's just data, raw facts. And, can facts help me know who I truly am? On the other hand, if one sees that he is prejudiced and says, well, I don't recognize with my prejudices, I don't know what I am, but I am certainly not my prejudices, isn't that a good place to start? I say, I don't know what I am, but I want to find out. — Zeus

The way you put it, especially the phrase "downloaded data" rings a bell. It belies an assumption which maybe obvious to others but not to me, viz. the notion that there's some kind of a self that has the ability to adopt or discard ideas, including prejudices, and is distinct from whatever beliefs that such a self holds. If so then you, me, everyone is pure consciousness which is to be understood here as the thing that has the ability to think. Note that in this interpretation of the self, there can be no identity for I see no way we may distinguish one consciousness from other except by means of the differences between the ideas each holds, including prejudices of course. What do you think?

If so then you, me, everyone is pure consciousness which is to be understood here as the thing that has the ability to think. — TheMadFool

I wonder if we can break this down and discuss first principles. What is consciousness? A popular notion and a well-accepted notion goes like this: Consciousness is the sum-total of my thoughts. It is also the sum-total of your thoughts. Why? Because your thoughts, my thoughts or any third person's thoughts are fundamentally same. I feel pain, you feel pain, my anger, your anger, my desires, your desires, etc. Superficially we may be different. I may be a Christian, you a Buddhist. I may be European, you an American. But these are surface differences. In our core, you and I think the same kind of thoughts and the entire content of our thoughts is our consciousness. So, we are on the same page when we say, our consciousness is indistinguishable.

Now, question is, is self-discovery in the field of thought or consciousness? We are using, after having established, thought and consciousness synonymously. My arguement is, NO. Because, thought is very limited. Thought is, as mentioned earlier, downloaded data. Also, thought is memory and future projections. 'I had a bad experience last summer' is a thought. 'I might fail the test tomorrow' is a thought. So, thought is data, memories and projections.

Now, do we see this? Not intellectually. But, through perception. Do we really see what thought does to ourselves? If we do, perhaps we'll see how thought savotages the present moment. I have experimented with this. Now, this very perception, this insight into the nature of thought will bring about clarity and still the mind. Then there will be infinite reception to everything.

An example: I am standing on the banks of a beautiful river. I see the river. But, I don't think RIVER. I don't compare this river with the river I saw last week. I don't think about how long or how deep the river is. The formation R-I-V-E-R doesn't happen in my mind. I just SEE the river. I am present completely. The river is so beautiful. I am lost in the moment. I am living in the moment. In that moment I am truly alive. I am in cummunion with the mighty river. A moment of bliss. And this bliss rocks the depth of my soul. I'm fulfilled. At that moment I am whole, I feel complete.

So, can we live like this every moment?

Don't know if I could communicate the idea effectively.

Because, thought is very limited. — Zeus

and yet it, thought, produces your insightful comment below:

The formation R-I-V-E-R doesn't happen in my mind. I just SEE the river. I am present completely. The river is so beautiful. I am lost in the moment. I am living in the moment — Zeus

You're in an awkward position if you ask me. You've thought, probably for a good amount of your precious time, and come to the realization that thought is "very limited". If anything then thought deserves more adoration than what you're offering it. True love, in my humble opinion, will always guide you, with gentle hands, to who is more worthy of your love and by this act becomes infinitely lovable. Thought, in your case, has led you to what it considers as something of greater value, pure perception to my understanding - "leave me", says thought, "and experience the bliss of my absence". Would you leave or no?

↪
Well then who would you like to examine your life?

A Seagull I would like to do it myself. But, how do I go about it? I see my thoughts are conditioned and contradictory so, any kind of self-analysis I feel will yield unfruitful results. I am tempted to say, that I can examine myself in regards to my relationship to others, as Viktor Frankl proposes. But, I am not quite convinced. — Zeus

I was being frivolous. The claim that the unexamined life is not worth living is a lie.

The 'unexamined life' is totally worth living.