It is an old definition, but I was under the impression that it was the accepted definition throughout epistemology and philosophy through consensus. Perhaps I’m wrong? — Pinprick
and paradigm cases of how epistemologists and ordinary speakers use the word "belief" and its cognates. — Cabbage Farmer
agnosticism is the epistemic state describable with respect to a proposition p as "not true that p and not false that p, but still possible that p". Possibility can be phrased in terms of "may/may not" right? — TheMadFool
A good deal is known through science, and more is being discovered all the time. Given an effectively infinite amount of time to study these subjects, do you think that they will remain a mystery forever? — SonOfAGun
An appeal to tradition? Simple observations of the world will tell you that this is no longer true. Though I am sure that this is still the accepted definition among scholars. Doesn't make it true. I'll rely on my arguments to determine the truth of the mater, given that my opposition is more arguments. — SonOfAGun
When discussing the question of "Does at least one god exist...or are there no gods that exist"...the words, "I believe..." ...is nothing more than a disguise for, "I blindly guess... ."
The use of "I blindly guess..." seems to bother some people, so they use, "I believe..." instead. — Frank Apisa
Pinprick
60
I KNOW WHO I AM.
— Frank Apisa
But do you believe you are Frank? — Pinprick
No...I do not "believe" I am Frank. I KNOW I AM FRANK. — Frank Apisa
TheMadFool
5.1k
↪Frank Apisa How would you differentiate, if it's a reasonable question to you at all, between the following three scenarios:
With reference to Francis Galton's Wisdom of the crowd,
1. Imagine someone accosts you in a fair, presents a jar full of marbles and asks you, "how many marbles does this jar contain?"
2. Now, imagine someone else, with a similar jar approaches you and says, "the jar alone weighs approximately 200 grams, each marble is roughly 1 gram and the jar with the marbles is about 600 grams. How many marbles does the jar contain?"
3. Then consider a third person, who comes to you and says, "the jar without the marbles weighs exactly 200 grams, each marble weighs exactly 1 gram and the jar together with the marbles weighs exactly 600 grams. How many marbles does the jar contain?"
For me, scenario 1, if we are to answer the question, is what I feel can be handled only by guessing for zero information is available; there's no possible means to logically deduce the actual number of marbles in the jar.
As for scenario 2, we have what can be termed, fuzzy data and although logical deduction of the number of marbles is possible, it wouldn't be accurate. There's no guarantee that the calculations will lead to the exact figure. — TheMadFool
In secnario 3, we have all the information we need to deduce the exact number of marbles in the jar. — MadFool
Which of the 3 scenarios would be a guess for you? The essence of guessing appears to be randomness i.e. when every possible answer in the scenarios I described is equiprobable. The moment the probability for any one answer is higher than the rest or the answer can be logically deduced then it's not guessing. — MadFool
Both scenario 2 and 3 can't be guessing; after all in scenario 2, a particular answer's probability is higher than others and in scenario 3 we can actually determine the correct answer. — MadFool
God beliefs, atheism or theism, correspond to scenario 2 - deductions based on insufficient data and so, in my humble opinion, doesn't amount to guessing for the least that can be said is that the relative probability of god's existence either increases/decreases with the strength of their arguments. — MadFool
However, if an agnostic ever decides to choose between god existing or not, fae, because fae presumes the data is insufficient, would be guessing. — MadFool
Sorry, TMF...I just do not know what fae means...and was not able to find out from Google. — Frank Apisa
Sorry, TMF...I just do not know what fae means...and was not able to find out from Google. — Frank Apisa
However, if an agnostic ever decides to choose between god existing or not... — MadFool
...fae, because fae presumes the data is insufficient, would be guessing. — MadFool
What do facts "require"?I did not say that. I said that facts do not require belief: they can be practically applied. — SonOfAGun
I haven't claimed that epistemologists all give the same account of belief. But I have claimed that the way I am using the term is consistent with ordinary use among them, and that the way you are using the term is unprecedented in my experience.I don't think that the epistemological field is as unified as you claim. What about epistemologists who are scientific realists? Perhaps they are not the majority, but exist non-the-less. — SonOfAGun
Forget about the results:Again facts can be practically applied with invariable results. They do not require belief. — SonOfAGun
Do I also know that I know the route? Do I believe that I know the route? Am I aware that I know the route? Am I aware that I am heading to the grocery store? Do I expect that the route I am taking will lead to the grocery? Do I have a clear notion of why I am heading this way....Since you know the route belief is not required. — SonOfAGun
What do explanations have to do with it? A belief is not an explanation. Perhaps you're conflating beliefs with explanations?The color of the sky is explainable via basic physics facts. — SonOfAGun
SonOfAGun
96
Sorry, TMF...I just do not know what fae means...and was not able to find out from Google.
— Frank Apisa
Try typing into google "the fae" rather than just fae.
Edit>>> Well it actually pulls it up both ways. I thought you said you already tried. — SonOfAGun
What do facts "require"? — Cabbage Farmer
Who "applies facts" in practice without "believing" the facts they apply? — Cabbage Farmer
It seems likely that what you're calling "practical application of a fact" is the same or nearly the same thing I am calling "belief". — Cabbage Farmer
Do I also know that I know the route? Do I believe that I know the route? Am I aware that I know the route? Am I aware that I am heading to the grocery store? Do I expect that the route I am taking will lead to the grocery? Do I have a clear notion of why I am heading this way.... — Cabbage Farmer
It's a breezy read on an important topic.Soundseasonable to me, CF. In fact, I might even borrow that quote after checking it out independently. — Frank Apisa
It seems likely you and I agree about the speculative character of many theistic and atheistic arguments, but differ in the attitude with which we engage some of our interlocutors, as well as in our evaluations of the reasonableness of some of their arguments.But this all refers back to something you said earlier: "Some people provide extensive arguments for their theistic or atheistic claims and beliefs. I'm not inclined to call that "guessing".
Okay...I appreciate that you are not inclined to call that "guessing."
I, however, DO...in spades and in capital letters.
And I am inclined, at times, to calling it bullshit.
(After reading your post, I acknowledge I may have to revise that last part.) — Frank Apisa
I knowingly and intentionally reach out for a glass of water. What are the facts that I have applied? Whatever they are: Isn't it ordinarily correct to say, and incorrect to deny, that beliefs like these factor among my beliefs at the time I reach for the glass: I believe that there is a glass before me, I believe there is water in the glass, I believe water is hydrating and thirst-quenching, I believe getting a hold of the glass and raising it to my lips is a way to put water into my mouth... — Cabbage Farmer
It's not clear to me that you have provided any reason that we should refrain from this custom. It's not clear to me that you have made sense of an alternative to this custom. — Cabbage Farmer
How would you account for this distinction and make it explicit, in the case at hand?Yes. But I want to make the distinction that believing a proposition is false is different than believing something doesn’t exist. — Pinprick
— SonOfAGun
What do explanations have to do with it? A belief is not an explanation. Perhaps you're conflating beliefs with explanations? — Cabbage Farmer
When I say "This is a glass of water", I believe this is a glass of water. That's not an explanation of what a glass of water is. It's just a belief that this is a glass of water. — Cabbage Farmer
For instance, consider the Great Fact, the whole of existence, the eternal sum of whatever is in fact the case, across all time and all space or across whatever "dimensions" we should name alongside or instead of time and space, across whatever iterations of generation and decay of universes or multiverses there may be.... Isn't it a truism to say the World thus conceived as Totality is the "source" or "ground" and "home" of all things and all beings? — Cabbage Farmer
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