It's like imposing a ban on the meat industry but still allowing people to consume meat. — TheMadFool
That would make perfect sense to me. There’s nothing wrong with eating an animal that’s already dead. There’s only anything wrong with killing living animals. So if something were to be done about carnivory, it would make more sense to ban the killing than the eating. If as a consequence nobody’s able to eat meat anymore, so be it, but stopping meat-eating was never the point. — Pfhorrest
A right to eat meat and a right to kill animals aren’t the same thing. If you can’t do the former without doing the latter, tough.
Likewise practicing your own religion personally and imposing you religion on others through the state. If you religion were to say it is a sin to not have a theocracy... then too bad for (that part of) your religion. — Pfhorrest
If the freedom to practice religion is a fundamental right, doesn't that mean religion is still prevalent in the general populace? — TheMadFool
So, while a nation is protected from devolving into a theocratic nightmare, it accomplishes only half the task because I'm sure the majority of the government officials are theists, guided, as it were, in their decisions by religious doctrine. — TheMadFool
Each house of the Congress starts each session with prayers to "Almighty God" — Frank Apisa
The governor would then find himself in a catch-22 situation where he is unable to fulfill the purpose of his position without violating one of the state’s key tenets. — Pinprick
I find the whole notion of separation of church and state to be an oxymoron. If the freedom to practice religion is a fundamental right, doesn't that mean religion is still prevalent in the general populace? And, where do politicians come from? From the general populace of course. So, while a nation is protected from devolving into a theocratic nightmare, it accomplishes only half the task because I'm sure the majority of the government officials are theists, guided, as it were, in their decisions by religious doctrine. It's like imposing a ban on the meat industry but still allowing people to consume meat. — TheMadFool
The phrase dates back to a time when most people had religion. Even back then according to the constitution/bill of rights it was legal to be atheist.
Are you saying religion should be banned by american government?
I don't want to insert something into what you said that you didn't say which is why i'm asking? — christian2017
Religion, on the other hand, not only claims to know the correct answers to everything but also prohibits rational inquiry into the validity of these answers. — TheMadFool
If humanity has learned anything it's that sometimes, maybe even most of the time, we don't have the right answers. — TheMadFool
Pinprick
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Each house of the Congress starts each session with prayers to "Almighty God"
— Frank Apisa
Is this true? If so, that is certainly a violation of the separation of church and state. — Pinprick
The phrase dates back to a time when most people had religion. Even back then according to the constitution/bill of rights it was legal to be atheist.
Are you saying religion should be banned by american government?
I don't want to insert something into what you said that you didn't say which is why i'm asking?
— christian2017
No, I don't believe religion should be banned but what worries me is that if philosophy has discovered anything, it's is that there's no such thing as a right answer to many of the issues we deem important and that too after thinking long and hard over many years.
Religion, on the other hand, not only claims to know the correct answers to everything but also prohibits rational inquiry into the validity of these answers. While I believe that no religion is completely wrong, I'd prefer it to be welcoming to positive, rational criticism.
Every religion I know of has a special word for those who don't believe in it and I believe most of these words translate to ignoramus. The upside of this practice of calling nonbelievers ignorant is that the faithful are under the impression that their religion counts as wisdom which, if anything, gives wisdom due recognition. The downside is once religion is equated to wisdom (in the traditional sense), it gains the advantage the latter has in terms of being both good and true, in the process making religion practically immune to any kind of criticism.
The problem with this line of thought is that believers have the wrong end of the stick re wisdom. If humanity has learned anything it's that sometimes, maybe even most of the time, we don't have the right answers. The traditional view that to have wisdom is to know everything thoroughly has been supplanted by the more realistic notion of wisdom as not only knowing stuff but also admitting ignorance. In a way then, religion, by claiming to know the truth and labeling nonbelievers as ignorant is actually proving, not that it possesses wisdom but in fact lacks it. It follows then that religion, by claiming perfect wisdom, makes itself unworthy of the attribute of wisdom. Ergo, it must open itself to critique or else continue on as an wisdom's impostor.
All what I've said up until this point is premised on religion being wrong but only as it appears to us, in this day and age. I'm open to the possibility, with great reluctance of course, that religion is correct and that either we don't understand or misunderstand religion. You know how it is...It's as easy to understand a fool as it is to misunderstand a sage. — TheMadFool
That is a shallow caricature if ever there was one. The entire university system of the West, not to mention the hospital system, and science itself, was started by religious orders and grounded in the Judeo-Christian system. — Wayfarer
There is a very powerful cultural mythology in secular western culture, the 'conflict thesis', that religion and science are forever in conflict and that only one can win. That was very much the work of some eminent 19th century intellectuals, like William Tyndall and others, carried on now by their modern counterparts like Richard Dawkins. But again it is based on a shallow caricature; there are many scientists who hold religious beliefs, see for example The Genius and Faith of Faraday and Maxwell. — Wayfarer
This dichotomy is the result of some particular developments within Western religious history; particularly Luther and Calvin's insistence on 'salvation by faith alone'. A lot of the problems go back to the suppression of the gnostic element in religious life; the means by which individual believers, or rather, practicers, come to see and know the truths of the faith in their own lives. 'Believe and be saved', is the teaching; 'don't, and be damned', is the usual implication. It seems like an open and shut case, a black and white situation, but that is very much a construct of our particular place in history. — Wayfarer
Who is this 'we'? All mankind? All cultures? All philosophies? All religions? Who doesn't know what, exactly? — Wayfarer
Considering the complacent and apathetic nature of modern people who adhere to the religion that i've chosen, i'm not sure i can argue that my religion is worth defending based on performance. Many of my chosen religion, construe a complacent and apathetic spirit as the Holy Spirit ("the comforter"). While i believe the Holy Spirit does sometimes condone complacency and apathy, it seems these people only embrace these spirits. That Holy Book says "test the spirits" (not that this implies not doing this is blasphemie against the Holy Spirit) meaning there are more than one spirit(s) according to that Holy Book amd not all of them are holy. The last "book" in this Holy book says there are 7 Holy Spirits (to my understanding of what is written)
As for all religions being the same, temple prostitution and child sacrifice was common among the Amorites (canaan and Iraq) and also other city states of Iraq, Hindu/India, Parthian/Greek, and also Roman, and i would guess there are more, i don't think its fair to say all religions have the same god/gods.
Also there have been Atheist rulers in history that have ruled with a rod of iron even to the point of imposing fear by randomly shooting citizens in the back of the head. — christian2017
Considering the complacent and apathetic nature of modern people who adhere to the religion that i've chosen, i'm not sure i can argue that my religion is worth defending based on performance. Many of my chosen religion, construe a complacent and apathetic spirit as the Holy Spirit ("the comforter"). While i believe the Holy Spirit does sometimes condone complacency and apathy, it seems these people only embrace these spirits. That Holy Book says "test the spirits" (not that this implies not doing this is blasphemie against the Holy Spirit) meaning there are more than one spirit(s) according to that Holy Book amd not all of them are holy. The last "book" in this Holy book says there are 7 Holy Spirits (to my understanding of what is written)
As for all religions being the same, temple prostitution and child sacrifice was common among the Amorites (canaan and Iraq) and also other city states of Iraq, Hindu/India, Parthian/Greek, and also Roman, and i would guess there are more, i don't think its fair to say all religions have the same god/gods.
Also there have been Atheist rulers in history that have ruled with a rod of iron even to the point of imposing fear by randomly shooting citizens in the back of the head.
— christian2017
I seem to have overlooked the dark side of atheism but I don't think atheism per se flips a switch inside our heads that make us go from peace loving, docile lambs to murderous, bloodthirsty villains. I'm not calling for criticism of religion because of the violence associated with it, although that would make a very good argument. What concerns me is the violent opposition of religious folks to subjecting the doctrines of their religions to proper scrutiny. No atheist will kill you for being a theist but the converse isn't true. — TheMadFool
Right - very difficult situation, I agree. But I think the principle would imply that it is ok for the Governor to offer a personal exhortation to prayer - it's when he starts to use the authority and instruments of office that the line is becoming blurred. It's not ideal in any case, but a matter of practical necessity in a pluralistic culture.
On the other hand, the US was very much founded on Christian principles and I myself am not a secular zealot, like, I don't agree with moves to abolish all symbols of religious belief in public life, like has been done in Montreal for example. I would rather adopt a live and let live attitude. — Wayfarer
persecution of science is well documented, no? — TheMadFool
I wish you could expand a bit on what you said in the last paragraph about how "...that is very much a construct of our particular place in history". What do you mean by that? Do you mean to say that the current situation of animosity between religion and science is just an accident and that things could've been different? — TheMadFool
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