Let's take McDonalds as an example. According to this they have 210,000 employees and a revenue of $21.076 billion. If we shut down McDonalds and pay their (former) employees $15 an hour, 40 hours a week, for an annual salary of $31,320 to not work, that's $6,577,200,000.

So a (worldwide) tax increase of $6,577,200,000, with $14,498,800,000 that can now be spent/invested elsewhere.

And you think that's going to introduce economic problems that will cause more suffering than is saved by McDonalds' employees not having to work? — Michael

I don't think McDonald's, despite having delicious sandwiches, fuels the economic engine of my great nation. So yes, Uncle Sam could give the hard workers of Mickey Dees a proverbial lottery ticket winning and tell them they no longer need to work and they could then do whatever it is they had planned to do but for their prior McDonald's obligations and none of would see any appreciable difference before or after other than no one will be there to stir us up our artificially flavored milkshakes. Do that to enough people and businesses, and yes, we will have a problem. The more we do it, the bigger the problem.

The takeaway might be that the pursuit of well-being might possibly be better than the pursuit we are trained for by missionaries or whoever.

If people don’t have money they can’t grow/buy food. They starve to death or lose their homes/education. — I like sushi

It needs addressing more closely I feel. — I like sushi

Let's look then.

The economy as fully functional and without lockdown results in 9 million deaths from starvation per year. It's a question as to whether the economy not functioning would be worse or better. The story we tell ourselves is that our wealth trickles down to these poor and starving people. And if the trickle stops, more will starve. I'm questioning that.

22 days ago, March 4th (aka 7 to 10 doubling periods yonder):

The virus may survive on surfaces up to 9 days (compared to 2 hours for the flue ... which means you can get this disease in the mail ... which in turn means if you test a Amazon warehouse you may find coronavirus, so you don't as to not make such a massive economic disruption so instead you just keep online the most efficient way to spread the virus exponentially through, perhaps low probability but super high impact, totally random infections that make entirely unexpected and unexplained clusters), — boethius

Today, March 24th:

Amazon on Monday evening had informed employees of the Shepherdsville, Kentucky, warehouse that the facility would be closed for 48 hours for cleaning after it identified three workers sickened by the disease caused by the coronavirus. On Wednesday, hours before the warehouse -- called SDF9 -- was scheduled to reopen, Amazon told workers it would be idled until further notice for more cleaning, the first known case of Amazon shutting a U.S. facility due to the pandemic without a scheduled end date. — Bloomber news

(use noscript with firefox to defeat paywall, only epistemologicaly of course )

PLANDEMIC? Was this planned?

COVID-19: Further Evidence that the Virus Originated in the US
”Japanese and Taiwanese epidemiologists and pharmacologists have determined that the new coronavirus could have originated in the US since that country is the only one known to have all five types – from which all others must have descended. Wuhan in China has only one of those types, rendering it in analogy as a kind of “branch” which cannot exist by itself but must have grown from a “tree”...

It would seem the only possibility for origination would be the US because only that country has the “tree trunk” of all the varieties. And it may therefore be true that the original source of the COVID-19 virus was the US military bio-warfare lab at Fort Detrick. This would not be a surprise, given that the CDC completely shut down Fort Detrick, but also because, as I related in an earlier article, between 2005 and 2012 the US had experienced 1,059 events where pathogens had been either stolen or escaped from American bio-labs during the prior ten years.“
https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-19-further-evidence-virus-originated-us/5706078

No. And take your tin foil hat conspiracies somewhere else.

”Japanese and Taiwanese epidemiologists and pharmacologists have determined that the new coronavirus could have originated in the US since that country is the only one known to have all five types – from which all others must have descended. Wuhan in China has only one of those types, rendering it in analogy as a kind of “branch” which cannot exist by itself but must have grown from a “tree”... — Amore

That's not how viruses work.

As of now, the US has suffered more cases of Covid than any country in the world.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Two days ago (March 24, 2020):

Coronavirus: US could become new epicentre of outbreak amid ‘very large acceleration’ in cases, WHO warns

"Over 46,000 infections and 530 deaths recorded, putting America on course to overtake Italy in number of cases.

...

Authorities have suggested the US is on track to eventually overtake China’s nearly 82,000 infections." — Michael

[bold mine]

That same day:

I'm giving it three days.
— Andrew M

82 000 has already passed in reality.
— ssu

Yes it has. — Andrew M

Today it is March 26, 2020 in the United States. The US has just passed China in the number of confirmed cases of Covid-19.

As @ssu pointed out, the above article was obsolete from the moment it was written. The US already was the epicenter and the "suggested" overtaking of China in terms of the actual number of infections had already passed.

Welcome to the reality of hidden exponential growth. In three more days, the US will have at least 200,000 confirmed cases. (And, in reality, already has that many cases.)

80%-90% of the population in your state or country needs to go into home self-isolation immediately and for at least four weeks. You won't get a second chance on this.

Your political leaders have failed to understand the absolute severity of this pandemic. Step up and tell your friends, family and coworkers that it is time to go into self-isolation now. New Zealand has already gone into lockdown and they have only 283 confirmed cases (and no deaths) as of today. How many cases does your state (US) or country have?

I don't think McDonald's, despite having delicious sandwiches, fuels the economic engine of my great nation. — Hanover

Wrong.

Your economy is a service based economy. Period. Please understand it. McDonalds is important.

Step up and tell your friends, family and coworkers that it is time to go into self-isolation now. — Andrew M

Begs the question: Who is still living normally, going out with friends and not taking any other measures than not shaking hands on the forum?

I'm just waiting when our dear neighbor Sweden will change it's policy and quarantine Stockholm. I think there the only Nordic country with schools open etc. and going with herd "immunity".

Wrong. — ssu

Wrong. The bankruptcy of McDonalds would not have a significant impact on the US economy. Nice graph showing the significance of the entire services sector, as if that's what we were talking about.

Wrong. The bankruptcy of McDonalds would not have a significant impact on the US economy. Nice graph showing the significance of the entire services sector, as if that's what we were talking about. — Hanover

Bullshit.

Bankruptcy of one of the most successful franchising companies operating in well over 100 countries would be a big issue. And if you think a company like McDonalds isn't important, what company you think would be then? The one you have in your stock portfolio? GM isn't in the position as it used to be, you know.

And yes, we are talking about the service sector. It was the sector that didn't suffer from the Great Recession so much and did provide work when a sector like construction collapsed.

Welcome to the reality of hidden exponential growth. In three more days, the US will have at least 200,000 confirmed cases. — Andrew M

I calculate about 150,000. But it's going to be bad one way or the other.

Bullshit.

Bankruptcy of one of the most successful franchising companies operating in well over 100 countries would be a big issue. And if you think a company like McDonalds isn't important, what company you think would be then? The one you have in your stock portfolio? GM isn't in the position as it used to be, you know.

And yes, we are talking about the service sector. It was the sector that didn't suffer from the Great Recession so much and did provide work when a sector like construction collapsed. — ssu

You're certainly passionate about nothing we were taking about. But no, the demise of McDonald's wouldn't have far reaching consequences to the US economy. Not sure why we're talking about GM now or my stock portfolio either.

Critically endangered animal shows up on Indian street during the lockdown., Venetian waterways became clear because there are no tourists...

We should have done this a long time ago!

And this guy!

We should have done this a long time ago! — frank

Assuming you think clean waterways are better than people using waterways because you have some anti-human bias. For some reason people think crowds are ugly and emptiness is pretty. Maybe because it's more rare or maybe because people are self loathing. I celebrate humanity myself.

I celebrate humanity myself. — Hanover

By peeing in a Venitian canal?

The trouble I have with this is that it's not always clear how you would separate out the two opposing views from each other when it comes to making concrete decisions relating to the economy. In case of early Trump and Johnson reactions to the crisis, they probably did have the economy as monetary value for a certain class in mind rather than the interests of the society at large. We know their ideologies.... — ChatteringMonkey

Definitely we agree here.

One might say, that's fine, it's just a bunch of traders, banks and the rich loosing out on making more money, who cares... but wouldn't this also have consequences for the rest of the economy so that in the end it has real consequences for the general public and the poor? And I understand that this is a 'designflaw' in the system to put it euphemistically, and that it could and should be otherwise in a number of ways... but until it is actually otherwise, it doesn't really matter right, because it still will have real consequences that are bad for the general public. — ChatteringMonkey

When people are structurally placed on the brink; i.e. precarious living as a form of social control, then indeed at any given moment it seems people need to live to die, later.

The problem we are witnessing in the United States is that people need to die now to die later. And all the kings men and all the kings horses can't put the propaganda back together again.

The "tension", previous to this crisis, seemed to be between the elites and the masses of poor that might "break free" at any moment, do something "revolutionary" like, oh I don't know, just go and start occupying things or something. Obviously, the problems that arise from poverty are solved by more poverty, at least a little while.

Ultimately a society that weakens itself to keep up an elite and keep down the poor and "the ethnics" is simply not able to withstand a real crisis. Yes, serfs of days past might depend on a corrupt liege to at least keep a fierce enemy with a penchant for genocidal at bay, and reason things just have to be this way, but if that same corrupt liege appoints corrupt and incompetent generals and admirals and taxes the poor into malnutrition, when the enemy is breaching the gates and streaming through the streets, this theoretical interdependence is no longer relevant.

True, this isn't the largest calamity that can be imagined (not a literal nuclear strike or environmentalists seizing power in a surprise Bolshevik-Nazi cultural-Marxist coup and immediately mandating large bonfires of all capital equipment and a "back to the woods, hunter-gathering collectivist suicide pact" to satisfy the most viscous of id's in the most extreme of all identity politics: self reliance) but rather the societies' I am referring to do not break due to facing something truly great, rather a fairly normal tempest sinks faster a ship already sinking. When the keel is rotten, new paint only lasts so long to keep things afloat. When the water pours over, and cold grips the heart, the time to fix the organizational problems that led to the crisis ... well, that boat has sailed.

For, it is not just coronovirus. The world in general, and the post-WWII Breton-Woods pax Americana in particular, has already lot's of problems, and it is within this context that the US has already even more problems.

And it is not simply Trump. Advancing Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton was already a sign that the American elite are no longer able to replace themselves cognitively. Advancing Biden clearly shows the disease is terminal.

The first parallel geopolitical analysts had when it was clear "things would be bad" is that this maybe the US's Chernobyl. A large and costly crisis in itself, yes, but more importantly a fatal blow to the faith that underpins the entire system. The virus pops to many illusion in too short a time. It is a "the invisible hand has no clothes" moment.

Future generations will say the Soviet Union fell due to an insane ideology detached from reality unable to fulfill its self appointed prophesy, and so too the USA.

Let's see then on next Monday what the figures are. (Let's see who got closer! :death: )

What I suspect that at some point Trump will get angry at the death rate being told in the news and somewhere down the line the statistics will be not accurate (as in Iran).

And we have a winner! This of course has nothing to do with Trump. (cue the apologists).

I called Trump a danger 3 years ago because we all knew the egotistical fuck can't handle a crisis (except for PR, gotta hand him that):

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/26121

Don't confuse this with schadenfreude but an honest attempt at bluntly ramming home the point how utterly fucked the US is and how inept its administration is. And how pathetically predictable.

And we have a winner! — Benkei

Ok. But you defended us against the troll, so you're excellent.

We are awestruck of your uncanny Nostradamus-like abilities to forecast that Trump wouldn't solve anything, but is this the correct thread, Benkei?

Trump just tells his crazy fairy tales of packed churches in Easter, yet the nation isn't him, not even the government is him. The political leadership handling this issue is more with the governors of the various states I would say.

I don't dispute your reasoning, my take is different. Firstly I don't see the global recession as so destructive. Rather economies have been put on hold and should bounce back when the restrictions are lifted. The less developed countries are already poor, for them this will be a public health disaster, although I expect there will be some famine, where the agriculture was already in trouble due to climate change. The poor healthcare they have was already not being supported much by wealthier countries.

Secondly I don't think that by relaxing the social distancing measures now imposed by most countries, the depth of the recession would be reduced. We don't know yet how far the health crisis will go and as it is an exponential contagion, halting that growth will mitigate the worst effects of the rapid increase in infection. This is the reason why these countries have adopted these measures. Presumably their governments have been advised by specialists as to how bad it could be without action.

The only country we have as an example which has not imposed social isolation is Iran, but we don't have accurate figures coming out of Iran. Perhaps some reports will emerge soon as to how it has affected their economy.

You're missing the forest for the trees. Cuomo totally fucked up too. Except he wasn't the one actively downplaying the issue while being briefed about the severity and Mulvaney was having daily meetings on CV. Gone by April he said.

And it's most definitely in the right thread. An important part of why Corona is as bad as it is, is trump not listening to advisors and in fact communicating the totally opposite of what he should've been doing in order to get Average Joe prepared.

Nice sarcasm on the Nostradamus BTW.

Secondly I don't think that by relaxing the social distancing measures now imposed by most countries, the depth of the recession would be reduced. We don't know yet how far the health crisis will go and as it is an exponential contagion, halting that growth will mitigate the worst effects of the rapid increase in infection. This is the reason why these countries have adopted these measures. Presumably their governments have been advised by specialists as to how bad it could be without action. — Punshhh

There's just 1 missing detail in this, which is that recession won't be less because you end up in the same situation of hospitals (even more) overrun, lot's of bad stories (from health care workers, from people who lose a loved one), and demand from the people that politicians do something.

However, in theory, you could just lift the quarantine and have that "pile of dead bodies in the corner" as Bill Gates says. Notice that he's saying to his follow oligarchs why you "can't" just lift the quarantine, which obviously you can, what's left unsaid is that the mechanism of why you "can't" is because other people care about those dead bodies; he's not telling his fellow oligarchs why you "shouldn't" have a pile of dead bodies, just that, for circumstances out of their control, he's trying to explain why they really can't (broken cookie syndrome vis-a-vis the economy).

I add this precision, because lot's of people arguing for lifting the quarantine are genuinely arguing for the pile of dead bodies and genuinely don't understand why people have a problem with that.

Notice, in Texas Lt. Gov Dan Patrick now famous interview he addresses what he perceives as the obvious criticism when he says "And I want to live smart and see through this" because the obvious rebuttal in his mind is "you're old, aren't you worried" to which he has a perfectly good answer with "I won't have buyers remorse here, I'll use my wealth to protect myself personally; obviously". He follows this thought immediately with "but I don’t want the whole country to be sacrificed" to cut off the other followup question of "you really ready to sacrifice all the other grandparents you're talking about, if you're not actually talking about yourself". For, it's you sacrificing the country, it's you destroying something not him!

At no point in the interview does he address people losing their grandparents unnecessarily, he insists the grandparents themselves are asking to bravely face death. Why? because he's clearly a psychopath: attributing his fearlessness in the face of the virus to every other grandparent (creating a noble "great generation" in the mind), while simultaneously bragging about his ability to use his "smarts" to avoid getting the virus; i.e. he's emotionally manipulating people to want to get the virus while displaying his ability to manipulate his own environment to not get the virus.

This thread points to some intractable misunderstanding about what's happening. It's the effect of the myth, I think.

I add this precision, because lot's of people arguing for lifting the quarantine are genuinely arguing for the pile of dead bodies and genuinely don't understand why people have a problem with that.

That’s just untrue. No one has ever said nor implied such an idea, and such a dangerous straw man is an incitement to violence.

The argument is that we can take precautions—social distancing, hygiene, testing and protecting vulnerable populations—without having to end the livelihoods and enterprises of people throughout the globe. We certainly don’t need to do it based on the speculations and models of people who overestimate their ability to tell the future.

Figured out a way to get the Breitbart crowd on board with not killing all the old people with corona virus. Here it goes:

Me: Imagine corona virus is a bunch of Mexican immigrants. Now what do you need to stop them?

Nobrainnocry: A wall?

Me: Yes! A huuuuuuge wall. Now, do you take that wall down just after putting it up?

Nobrainnocry Damn, no! The rapey murderers would be pouring in again like flies.

Me: Right, you leave it there until...

Nobrainnocry: Until...?

Me: Take your time...

Nobrainnocry: Until you multiplee nuke Mexico and wipe enough of the varmints out so there's hardly a body left to come in?

Me: Exactly! Now, see, the wall is called a lockdown. And the nuke is a strategy called the hammer and we're going to beat corona like the nasty immigrant virus it truly is. God bless 'Murica.

Nobrainnocry: Whooopeee!