What did you mean that "you tend to 'believe' that, Gregory?

Can you state it clearly without the use of the word "believe?" — Frank Apisa

People get hunches based on their reasoning. If it becomes clearer the more I mull over it, I say I believe. I tend to say "I believe" for everything I currently think (there's the replacement work) because I am open to being wrong about everything

Why is activity even better than passivity in any system? — Gregory

Are you confusing actual with action?

People get hunches based on their reasoning. If it becomes clearer the more I mull over it, I say I believe. I tend to say "I believe" for everything I currently think (there's the replacement work) because I am open to being wrong about everything — Gregory

Thank you, Gregory. I also get hunches...and that kind of thing.

The use of the word "believe" for hunch, or guess, or estimate, or so many other words is fine...except there are times when it makes more sense to use "the other words."

tim wood
4k
Why is activity even better than passivity in any system?
— Gregory

Are you confusing actual with action? — tim wood

Probably would be better to take that question over to the other thread, Tim.

Frank!

I think you could parse Belief a couple ways.

1. Belief could be defined as induction v. deduction. Having a belief in something infers something. It infers that a something exists. That, as apposed to a purely objective and/or universal truth, like mathematics, which exists in a deductive manner.

2. A Belief could comprise the following infamous Kantian judgement: all events must have a cause. The statement itself, if true, is something that would be beyond pure reason; both empirically and a priori/mathematical/deductively.

You probably already knew that!

Probably would be better to take that question over to the other thread, Tim. — Frank Apisa

And why would that be, Frank?

As usual, I will offer something from Charles Sanders Peirce, in this case his somewhat famous definition of a belief as a habit of conduct.

And what, then, is belief? It is the demi-cadence which closes a musical phrase in the symphony of our intellectual life. We have seen that it has just three properties: First, it is something that we are aware of; second, it appeases the irritation of doubt; and, third, it involves the establishment in our nature of a rule of action, or, say for short, a habit ... The essence of belief is the establishment of a habit; and different beliefs are distinguished by the different modes of action to which they give rise. If beliefs do not differ in this respect, if they appease the same doubt by producing the same rule of action, then no mere differences in the manner of consciousness of them can make them different beliefs, any more than playing a tune in different keys is playing different tunes. — Peirce, 1878

As the old saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words"; what I truly believe is more reliably discerned from what I do than from what I say.

tim wood
4k
Probably would be better to take that question over to the other thread, Tim.
— Frank Apisa

And why would that be, Frank? — tim wood

Because that is where that is being discussed, Tim.

Not this stupid shit again

3017amen
1.5k
↪Frank Apisa

Frank!

I think you could parse Belief a couple ways.

1. Belief could be defined as induction v. deduction. Having a belief in something infers something. It infers that a something exists. That, as apposed to a purely objective and/or universal truth, like mathematics, which exists in a deductive manner.

2. A Belief could comprise the following infamous Kantian judgement: all events must have a cause. The statement itself, if true, is something that would be beyond pure reason; both empirically and a priori/mathematical/deductively.

You probably already knew that! — 3017amen

I suspect that "believe" is the most misused word in the English language...and insofar as I can influence people NOT to use it, I will make the attempt.

Not going all that well!

Most of the time it doesn't matter. The "believe" in "I 'believe' the Giants will win"...is harmless. Who gives a hoot if "believe" or "estimate" is used. Same thing for "I 'believe' I'll have a piece of cake with my coffee"; or "I 'believe' The Godfather was a better movie than The Godfather II.

The alternative words do not substantially change the information being communicated...nor would the alternative words make the comment any closer to true.

But when discussing things like, "Do any gods exist?" or "Do no gods exist?"...the matter is not so inconsequential.

aletheist
1.3k
↪Frank Apisa
As usual, I will offer something from Charles Sanders Peirce, in this case his somewhat famous definition of a belief as a habit of conduct.
And what, then, is belief? It is the demi-cadence which closes a musical phrase in the symphony of our intellectual life. We have seen that it has just three properties: First, it is something that we are aware of; second, it appeases the irritation of doubt; and, third, it involves the establishment in our nature of a rule of action, or, say for short, a habit ... The essence of belief is the establishment of a habit; and different beliefs are distinguished by the different modes of action to which they give rise. If beliefs do not differ in this respect, if they appease the same doubt by producing the same rule of action, then no mere differences in the manner of consciousness of them can make them different beliefs, any more than playing a tune in different keys is playing different tunes.
— Peirce, 1878
As the old saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words"; what I truly believe is more reliably discerned from what I do than from what I say. — aletheist

Obviously I disagree in total with Peirce.

I do agree with the sentiment being conveyed with, "Actions speak louder than words."

SophistiCat
1.1k
Not this stupid shit again — SophistiCat

What "stupid shit" is that?

Because that is where that is being discussed, Tim. — Frank Apisa

Really? My question is being discussed there? I do not find it over there. How is my question being discussed over there?

Why is activity even better than passivity in any system?
— Gregory

@Gregory
Hi Gregory. Are you confusing actual with action?

:up:

Obviously I disagree in total with Peirce. — Frank Apisa

Why do you disagree? And why would that be obvious?

where the words "believe/belief" rear their ugly heads — Frank Apisa

Well I find the words belief, believe extremely useful and meaningful.

Your beliefs are what you believe, they are the ideas you hold in your head.

"The use of the word "believe" for hunch, or guess, or estimate, or so many other words is fine...except there are times when it makes more sense to use "the other words.""

Okay. Everybody speaks about physics and math.

What do you mean by "mean" in the OP question?

aletheist
1.3k
Obviously I disagree in total with Peirce.
— Frank Apisa
Why do you disagree? — aletheist

Mostly because what he says there is contrived...a sermon that sounds intellectual but misses the mark.

I will confine myself to professed "beliefs" about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...what exists in the REALITY...and what doesn't. (See my comment to Amen up above.)

ANY...and EVERY..."belief" about the REALITY of existence...is a guess. A blind guess at that.

EVERY answer to questions such as: "Is there a God?"; "Are there gods?"; "Are there no gods?"' "Is there an 'afterlife'?"; "Is there nothing after death?"; "Is what we humans call 'the universe' all that exists?"; "Is what we think of as "the physical universe" just an illusion?"; "Are there beings in other dimensions right here on Earth?"...and questions of that sort...

...is a blind guess, but almost every one of them is answered with a variation of, "Well I 'believe' that blah, blah, blah."

The word "believe" in that context is nothing but a disguise for the words "blind guess."

In my estimation, the thesis on the word Peirce offered and which you quoted above...misses that completely. Charles Peirce was an incredibly intelligent man...but he simply missed the boat on this issue.

And why would that be obvious?

My apologies. It would be obvious to anyone who has read the thousands of times I have gone over this. (See the remarks of 180Proof and SophisticCat above.)

A Seagull
326
where the words "believe/belief" rear their ugly heads
— Frank Apisa

Well I find the words belief, believe extremely useful and meaningful.

Your beliefs are what you believe, they are the ideas you hold in your head. — A Seagull

Thank you. See my remarks to Aletheist.

Borraz
18
↪Frank Apisa

"The use of the word "believe" for hunch, or guess, or estimate, or so many other words is fine...except there are times when it makes more sense to use "the other words.""

Okay. Everybody speaks about physics and math. — Borraz

Sorry, Borraz...you lost me here.

fdrake
3.3k
What do you mean by "mean" in the OP question? — fdrake

What do you mean by "what?"

What do you mean by "what?" — Frank Apisa

What do you mean by "what", "do", "you", "mean", "by" and "what"?

fdrake
3.3k
What do you mean by "mean" in the OP question? — fdrake

Okay, I was a bit abrupt there. Question like that seem to be a stalling or diverting tactic.

But let me assume you were not stalling or diverting, and were asking in order to make a comment on it.

So...take a look at your question, "What do you MEAN by "mean" in the OP question?"...

...figure out what you meant by "mean" in your question...

...assume I meant that same thing...

...and make your comment.

fdrake
3.3k
What do you mean by "what?"
— Frank Apisa

What do you mean by "what", "do", "you", "mean", "by" and "what"? — fdrake

See my response above.

Okay, I was a bit abrupt there. Question like that seem to be a stalling or diverting tactic. — Frank Apisa

What do you mean by "I" and "was" and "question"?

...assume I meant that same thing... — Frank Apisa

If you can do this, then the OP unasks itself.

Charles Peirce was an incredibly intelligent man...but he simply missed the boat on this issue. — Frank Apisa

I suspect that your view on this is much closer to his than you realize. If a purported belief makes no difference whatsoever in our conduct, then it is not a real belief, just empty words.

fdrake
3.3k
Okay, I was a bit abrupt there. Question like that seem to be a stalling or diverting tactic.
— Frank Apisa

What do you mean by "I" and "was" and "question"?

...assume I meant that same thing...
— Frank Apisa

If you can do this, then the OP unasks itself. — fdrake

I do not know what you are talking about...

...and I suspect you do not know what you are talking about either.

aletheist
1.3k
Charles Peirce was an incredibly intelligent man...but he simply missed the boat on this issue.
— Frank Apisa
I suspect that your view on this is much closer to his than you realize. If a purported belief makes no difference whatsoever in our conduct, then it is not a real belief, just empty words. — aletheist

Perhaps. I have not read Peirce extensively.

But I have done a thorough investigation into the use of the word "believe" (and "belief") and when used in discussions about the REALITY of existence...IT IS A DISGUISE FOR THE WORDS "BLIND GUESS."

The question for me is never "Is it a disguise"...but rather, "Is the disguise being used intentionally...or is it an accident that the person using it is not even aware of?"

When I challenge people on it...they insist they are not making a guess. Usually, they just say things like, "I mean I REALLY, REALLY "believe" it" or "I very firmly "believe" it."

So whether it was accidental at first, people using it the way I am dealing with here...insist that it means something other than a blind guess...when, in fact, it cannot be anything but a blind guess.

(One exception: A statement "There is at least one GOD" could be more than a guess. IF a god exists...it could reveal itself to any individual. If someone suggests a personal revelation rather than a guess...I ask, "How do you know you are not deluding yourself."

Interesting answers I get to that.

Peirce recognized that even what we "know" is grounded in guesses, or if we want to use a more sophisticated term, retroductive hypotheses. That includes the notion of reality itself.

What is reality? Perhaps there isn’t any such thing at all. As I have repeatedly insisted, it is but a retroduction, a working hypothesis which we try, our one desperate forlorn
hope of knowing anything. — Peirce, 1898