So is there really civilization without Christianity? Be it by happenstance or a blessing by God. Being a Christian is about following Jesus and this is it. — Eleonora

Well, if you twist the definition enough, you can claim anything. Maybe you want to argue this with your local muslim cleric... as you know, according to islamic doctrine, we are all born muslim, only we kuffar refuse to acknowledge that.... which is why Allah hates us.

No compromise. I do however concur about civilizations presuming to exist without Christianity. I do not recognize any to exist without Christ however. Were we to consider Christianity the Church of Christ, it is about to figure out where Jesus fits into the picture. Whether he exists or not is non-essential for whichever conclusions we might derive at. According to Christianity, be it the church of Christ or not - Jesus said: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."; John 13:35. Whoever coined that phrase; is Christ in my opinion. Everything around it is mere happenstance.

So is there really civilization without Christianity? Be it by happenstance or a blessing by God. Being a Christian is about following Jesus and this is it. — Eleonora

And after studying the other religions how did you come to that decision?

Well, if you twist the definition enough, you can claim anything. Maybe you want to argue this with your local muslim cleric... as you know, according to islamic doctrine, we are all born muslim, only we kuffar refuse to acknowledge that.... which is why Allah hates us. — Nobeernolife

Muslims do not hate us. How many of them do you know? There are fanatics in every religion who have some pretty awful ideas and there are normal people who have some pretty awful ideas and I think we can do better than this.

Is your beef with Muslims related to Israel?

PS
I see I misinterpreted your post. You said Allah hates us, not Muslims hate us. Sure God hates us so much He intended to destroy all of humanity in a flood. He hates us so much some believe He created a hell to torment us for eternity. Or He hates us so much He unleashed Satan on earth to torment us. I really try to be respectful, but those stories of Allah/God are not explanations of reality that I can respect.

Well, if you twist the definition enough, you can claim anything. — Nobeernolife

A twist of definition is another definition. As I posed one we have a clear opportunity to do whatever we want with it. That's all - no argument.

we are all born muslim — Nobeernolife

I rather want to postulate it that we are all born within Islam. Being a Muslim in essence is also as simple as being a Christian - to want to know God. Allah loves you enough to not involve beyond your will to do so. Muslims however might love God more than they love that fact and therein lies your issue with Allah.

And after studying the other religions how did you come to that decision? — Athena

Was that directed at me? Where then is the decision to your reference? I need a little more meat on my legs to justly answer it.

You are the compromise in demand of itself. It doesn't in any way alter my statement for what it stands. There is nothing absolute about it, merely for what it is.

Was that directed at me? Where then is the decision to your reference? I need a little more meat on my legs to justly answer it. — Eleonora

That question came after your quote, in the same post, so yes the question is directed at you.

You are explaining reality to us and I am asking what do know about the rest of the world, that justifies what you believe about civilization depending on a particular religion. I understand civilizations have depended on religions, but any religion will do. Why do you say only one religion can result in a civilization?

Ancient civilizations existed for thousands of years. Why do appear to deny this?

Why do you say only one religion can result in a civilization? — Athena

Therein lies the compromise. There is no need for any religion to justify my beliefs. Christianity entails the concept of following this ideal: Love - which I deem is the only civilizationable measure. I believe this concept to be the Christ. It was is and will be so before and after any version of Christ may or may not be born. The concept itself is Christ and any person regardless of religion can lift it up.

I'm an atheist too. I just happen to be multi-religious and theistic. If it requires me to be insane, so be it. God doesn't have to be single to be singular. My appearance of denial probably resides in your wish to ascribe value to my words. A place to belong?

Of course I mean what I say. That is the only real value of the words. For example: I do not require evolution to be incorrect in order to understand creation as valid. It's not at all difficult to do them both when it's a simple matter of perspective. Perspective can change before it even begins.

Oh my, I see. You know what you know and that is not much, and it will not change unless you want to change it. I will leave you alone with what you want to believe.

that is not much — Athena

From whence do you judge the depth of my knowledge? Please don't leave me alone. Don't give up on me.

The problem might be to assume there is an answer when not having directed yourself to it with a question. The truth can remain that you do not know the depth of my knowledge, as I might not yours - and therefore not the consistency within which my context prevails. I will not leave you alone, but I will give up on you now.

The problem might be — Eleonora

Mind your own business - it would have been founding tenant in teaching men to govern themselves. The countermeasure to that is to care for other's. Those two are equally important decrees in any real democracy and that the reality of Athena should know.

:chin: What do you think makes us civilized? — Athena

Our insecurity, tribal natures and reliance on law.

Regards

DL

Honestly? Jesus Christ - I reckon. I put all my hopes in that basket. — Eleonora

If the Gnostic Christian Jesus, a good choice.

If the genocidal Jesus of the Christians that connects Jesus to Yahweh; Yuk.

Misogynous. Need I say more?

Regards
DL

Being a Christian is about following Jesus and this is it. — Eleonora

Which Jesus?

The one who would enslave you to a religion or the Jesus that would free you from it?

The one who tells you to preach or the one eho tells you to shut up in church?

Regards
DL

Need I say more? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

If you said all that you mean, I reckon you're all set. I'm flexible enough to be convinced on whichever grounds.

I deem both views valuable. Would humanity really know itself without the cruelty and injustice set upon them by a theoretically loving God? You've obviously taken some good points from it. I do not however deem YHWH and Christ to retain the same concept. While YHWH rather appears to be about tough love, Jesus is about the redemption of YHWH in unity with the people - a light pointing towards the real love. So which basket is it? Both, neither, nor neither. It goes beyond singularity. A trinity perhaps.

Which Jesus? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

The Jesus I deem embodies the Christ by coining the phrase giving raise to eternal civilization: By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. Remains to be seen, doesn't it? Sooner rather than later, I hold. Following Christ is as simple as being His disciple, by the only definition we can know. That's the entirety of what Christianity is about to me.

That one.

that claim would only make any sense if this united god was schizophrenic — Nobeernolife

Consider for a moment that Allah was a beer and JHWH is life. He drinks his beer, then gives his life to JHWH. JHWH, drunk on himself, would naturally make a lot of assumptions. Of course Allah would be in on this, but would that make him schizophrenic?

I see I misinterpreted your post. — Athena

Well, thank you. You should always try to read before rushing to the keyboard.

You said Allah hates us, not Muslims hate us. Sure God hates us so much He intended to destroy all of humanity in a flood. He hates us so much some believe He created a hell to torment us for eternity. Or He hates us so much He unleashed Satan on earth to torment us. I really try to be respectful, but those stories of Allah/God are not explanations of reality that I can respect. — Athena

Apples and oranges. God (the Christian god) does not specifically hate the followers of other religions and names them. That characteristic is specific to Allah and makes him fundamentally different from the other two religions that apologists like always want to compare it with.
And that is why I keep explaining the claim it is the same religion is so self-contradictory.

Our insecurity, tribal natures and reliance on law. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

We take being civilized for granted and that is a big mistake. I hope we learn better because if our economy crashes before we understand what makes us civil, the consequences could be very ugly.

God did not become a loving God until our bellies were full. The tribe can be predatory and even cannibals. The tribe can own slaves and treat them like subhumans. I don't think we can count on our tribal nature to make us civil. For sure it is not insecurity and laws that make us civil. Look at what happened in Germany and Japan, and ancient China or the Aztecs.

Did you tell me to mind my own business?

To mind one's own business is the basic lemma in ruling your own confines, which is the prime function in a functioning society. It is only within those confines that we have the emphatic ability to actually care for each other. If you are not interested in my business you should simply not mind it, lest you cannot care for what it might entail and will thus loose providence on your own power. I did. I care. I will not argue for your sake but I will happily teach you anything on the subject of divinity if you present to me humility before it.

, you're welcome too since you've been implied.

It is not apples and oranges. The God of Abraham is the same God in all three religions. He is a jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing God. The Bible is salted with statements like this

Nahum 1:2 ESV / 26 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.

So what if the Quaran might say the same thing slightly differently. That does not equal worshiping a different God. I stress the point because back in the day that is how people thought. What made us different was Hellenism.

To mind one's own business is the basic lemma in ruling your own confines, which is the prime function in a functioning society. It is only within those confines that we have the emphatic ability to actually care for each other. If you are not interested in my business you should simply not mind it, lest you cannot care for what it might entail and will thus loose providence on your own power. I did. I care. I will not argue for your sake but I will happily teach you anything on the subject of divinity if you present to me humility before it. — Eleonora

okay, I see.

It is not apples and oranges. The God of Abraham is the same God in all three religions. He is a jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing God. The Bible is salted with statements like this

Nahum 1:2 ESV / 26 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.

So what if the Quaran might say the same thing slightly differently. That does not equal worshiping a different God. I stress the point because back in the day that is how people thought. What made us different was Hellenism. — Athena

f Jesus wants us to know of good and evil, as a prerequisite to being born again as his brethren, it goes well with Jesus’ prediction as quoted above.

That may be why Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan.

I am not a literal reader of this myth, but this seems to make sense. It follows then that it makes sense for Adam to ignore Yahweh’s command not to gain an education.

Thoughts? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Other than the initial capturing of Canaan in ~1300 BC when were the jews instructed to target other nations unless they were being attacked (which is something secular nations do). Joshua didn't commit genocide because there were still plenty of Amorites in ancient Iraq. I could go on and on about this but i'll get to it later.

It is not apples and oranges. The God of Abraham is the same God in all three religions. He is a jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing God. The Bible is salted with statements like this — Athena

OK, you keep repeating that, but you are not paying attention to what I am saying.
I am not arguing if the guy is " jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing" or not. That is NOT the point.
I am making the simply logical observation that you can not be love and hate your followers at the same time, unless you are schizophrenic. That is simply a logical statement --- is that really so hard to understand?

Consider for a moment that Allah was a beer and JHWH is life. He drinks his beer, then gives his life to JHWH. JHWH, drunk on himself, would naturally make a lot of assumptions. Of course Allah would be in on this, but would that make him schizophrenic? — Eleonora

I have no clue what you are trying to say, and neither, I suspect, do you.

Consider for a moment that Allah was a beer and JHWH is life. He drinks his beer, then gives his life to JHWH. JHWH, drunk on himself, would naturally make a lot of assumptions. Of course Allah would be in on this, but would that make him schizophrenic?
— Eleonora

I have no clue what you are trying to say, and neither, I suspect, do you. — Nobeernolife

One of the things she is implying is that due to circumstances of reality that God (or the main God) is dualist and/or schizophrenic.

She is also essentially saying Allah and the hebrew/christian God are linked but somehow one is an extension of the other. (she used an example so it could go either way in her mind considering this is a hypothetical example)

This idea of hers is similar to things in hinduism and buddhism (some sects of hinduism claim they are essentially atheist). You also find this sort of thing in alot of new age and witchcraft religions (as well as druidism or modern druidism). There are various sects within hinduism and buddhism just like christianity.

What my question is how does she feel about modern temple prostitution in hinduism and also temple prostitution in ancient iraq?

I have an explanation of why Jesus/God is not schizophrenic and/or dualistic but i'm not going to post it unless asked, because i'll even agree its not written well. I would argue the best bet is to google (she not neccesarily you) or bing the subject of christian theology and dualism (or "is God schizophrenic" while looking for a christian response to the question).

She is also essentially saying Allah and the hebrew/christian God are linked but somehow one is an extension of the other. (she used an example so it could go either way in her mind considering this is a hypothetical example) — christian2017

We are still talking past each other. My point is really not difficult. Here for the last time (I hope):
In the Koran, Allah states very clearly that he a) loves the muslims and b) hates the Jews, the Christians, and the Polytheists.

If you say Allah = Yaweh, that means that the Jews and Christians are also muslims.

From that follows that Allah a) loves the muslims and b) hates the muslims.

In what universe does that make sense?

My simply observation here was that description refers to two different god figures.

She is also essentially saying Allah and the hebrew/christian God are linked but somehow one is an extension of the other. (she used an example so it could go either way in her mind considering this is a hypothetical example)
— christian2017

We are still talking past each other. My point is really not difficult. Here for the last time (I hope):
In the Koran, Allah states very clearly that he a) loves the muslims and b) hates the Jews, the Christians, and the Polytheists.

If you say Allah = Yaweh, that means that the Jews and Christians are also muslims.

From that follows that Allah a) loves the muslims and b) hates the muslims.

In what universe does that make sense?

My simply observation here was that description refers to two different god figures. — Nobeernolife

It doesn't make sense. Other than the initial conquest of Canaan, the jews/christians were never asked to go on the offensive. I could go on and on about why Joshua did not commit genocide & why some nations can be justified to be attacked and wiped out (considering the time they lived in). But i'll spare you.

Mohomad was a sexual predator and i have muslim holy books that back this up. As you said above he was also a historical war lord. The Koran encourages muslim crusades.

The Pope doesn't neccessarily reflect all christians through out history.

Mohomad was a sexual predator and i have muslim holy books that back this up. As you said above he was also a historical war lord. The Koran encourages muslim crusades. — christian2017

Err.... that would be Crescendates, not Crusades. But I would simply stick with Jihad, which actually is an ongoing effort in islamic doctrine, not a rare and unique event like the crusades.