If we do not turn our love of self to our hate of self, we are bound for our near extinction.

Science has shown that the good in us, our love side, is dominating us via our selfish gene.

Science is also showing us that we are in a major extinction event that may well include a vast number of people. I doubt that our full extinction will come to pass, but we will be reduced to such small numbers that we will likely revert to a less sophisticated system and city states.

If we do not turn our swords into plows, and devastate the worlds populations with war, our environment will do the deed and near extinct us.

We love our governments and gods. That is why we have let them bring us to the brink of extinction. We follow them so closely that we all have our heads stuck into the ground.

I think, given the incompetence of all governments and gods; we should let our great love for what leads us and turn it to hate, as we should, to insure the survival of people right here and right now. Start to hate the systems that got us all to this pitiful place in time.

We presently elect our incompetent governments and gods for a variety of reasons. We are all tribal and belong to a religious tribe or a government tribe. We all follow their ideologies, theologies or philosophies. We are all the same in this.

Surely, given that we are basically all humans, who wish to love more than hate, can hate those things that are putting us all in peril long enough to do something about our head long leap to near extinction.

The environment is under political control and they are killing our bodies. Our bodies harbor our souls to the physical world where our children live.

I think it is time for a god to take over.

I don’t care if it is a pedophile protecting Pope or a united Christianity, or newly elected Khalif of a newly united Islam, but a god must step up, as our political side has failed humankind completely.

Our politicians are not uniting the world and should be made to step down so that some form of religious system, chosen by the masses, so that we can try uniting under a newly elected god.

Jesus prophesied that that would become a necessity, and so did Socrates before him. Both were right in thinking that such a system would be the best possible end for political theories.

I urge the vast majority of the world, the religious, to have a final battle in the ongoing god wars, which involves our political gods as well. Let their hate out by debate and elect a new god of peace so that our current incompetent batch of leaders might find the best one.

My love of the religious has let loose my hate against our incompetent political leadership and I think we all should, elect a new god and save us from our own near extinction.

We have the means; do we have the will?

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

So you are saying if we don't have a unified world government we'll go to war? My assumption based on previous posts, you believe this unified government should be a pseudo capitalist/socialist combination similar to modern China or just socialist?

How do you feel about movies like "V for Vendetta"? I only use a movie for an example because your plan lacks the question of "who is watching the watcher?" from George Orwell.

I am saying that if we do not have a one world government ot theoc4racy, we will not solve our many problems and will likely curse our children with a near extinction.

How much of our garbage do you want to pass up to your children?

China's interests are well met with laïcité French style. For now, I like what China is doing they are fighting fascist religions with fascist programs.

Regards
DL

If we do not turn our love of self to our hate of self, we are bound for our near extinction. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

What do you mean by 'hate of self' here. Are you actually suggesting we learn to hate ourselves? Isn't our denial of our connection to nature already a form of self-hatred?

Science is also showing us that we are in a major extinction event that may well include a vast number of people. I doubt that our full extinction will come to pass, but we will be reduced to such small numbers that we will likely revert to a less sophisticated system and city states. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Here you are appealing to our self-love. Many of us will die, our lives with be less good, those that survive.

I think, given the incompetence of all governments and gods; we should let our great love for what leads us and turn it to hate, as we should, to insure the survival of people right here and right now. Start to hate the systems that got us all to this pitiful place in time. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Hating the systems is not the same as hating the self, or?

What do you mean by 'hate of self' here. Are you actually suggesting we learn to hate ourselves? — Coben

We are the enemy of the environment and should hate what we do to it. I do not separate what we do from what we are, so hate whatever you like of those two options.

Here you are appealing to our self-love. Many of us will die, our lives with be less good, those that survive. — Coben

Yes, as we are allowing our default position of love to rule us when I think we should let our hate for what we hate rule us and move us to do the right thing for the future generations, if it is not already too late to mitigate that harm.

Hating the systems is not the same as hating the self, or? — Coben

Are we not a part of the systems we should hate?

Take us out of it and all you can hate is the system. I don't care as long as we get the people running those systems. It always comes down to us. We are our systems.

Regards
DL

We are our systems. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

We are the enemy of the environment and should hate what we do to it. I do not separate what we do from what we are, so hate whatever you like of those two options. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I guess that my gut reaction is that self-hate will nto improve things and I see self-hate as causal in the way we damage the environment. Our disenchantment and disconnection from nature is a form of self-hatred since we are a part of nature. It is a part of disregarding ourselves. Just as shitting on our mother would be a form of self-hatred. I get what you mean, and I can sort of accept it as provocation, but as a real suggestion I think it just muddles the issue. People hating themselves will have even less contact with themselves, wan
t more distraction and use more energy and create more garbage,since they have no idea how to live.

Yes, as we are allowing our default position of love to rule us when I think we should let our hate for what we hate rule us and move us to do the right thing for the future generations, if it is not already too late to mitigate that harm. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I was pointing out that the argument you used was appealing to our self-love and encouraging us to treat ourselves well by not destroying the environment. In the context of saying we need to hate ourselves, it is precisely the opposite approach you then take.

Are we not a part of the systems we should hate? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yes and no, and to varying degrees person to person. If you said something like we should hate our disconnection with nature or hate what we do in relation to nature when we X, that's one thing. But you start with a general, we should start to hate ourselves. I can tell you that I know that hating myself more will not help the planet in the slightest. Their may be people who in a core way hate their mother planet and they need to hate some of their current practices and values. Fine. But that we all need to hate ourselves more which would mean love ourselves less is NOT something I think would be remotely good for anyone or anything in my case. In fact if I and my wife hated ourselves more tomorrow, I think it would only serve the ones who really hate life and nature. For much the same reason I dislike the way various religions teach self-hate (while denying it) I dislike this encouragement to self-hate, however much I appreciate the goal of getting us to where we will treat nature better. It's nothing for me. And it just creates even more problems for us to unravel. It is as if those who hate and destroy nature and want to hang on to those practices and do not, like me, grieve what is happening, are showing self-love in their relationship with the planet. They are not. They may think so, but they are wrong. They might as well be hitting themselves in the face with a hammer. I see little self love in them. They don't even know themselves.

We are our systems. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Which are filled with self-hate. And the members of that we are all kinds of different things. If you think hating yourself more will help the planet, well, do that. Hate yourself more. I am skeptical that will clean up one plastic bag in the ocean, or create legislation that is much more careful with nano-tech pollution. But I don't know what you will do if you start hating yourself (more).

I do know however that my hating myself will not protect a single leaf.

Could we find some grounding in what your belief structure is? For instance: what distinction are you pointing at when describing "self love" vs "self hate". I'm assuming this has become a semantics issue.

Coben — Coben

You want to hate many things, to improve things, yet ignore that it is mankind who is doing the destroying and should be hated.

We default to loving ourselves and each other and unless we change to what you dislike, nothing will change.

Love more like scriptures tell you to love, which is the way I love.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

You do not seem to want to love that much.

Regards
DL

Could we find some grounding in what your belief structure is? For instance: what distinction are you pointing at when describing "self love" vs "self hate". I'm assuming this has become a semantics issue. — ISeeIDoIAm

Not really semantics to me, but I may have answered you with my last reply. Let me know.

What I am trying to do is have people think in the way this scripture shows.

https://biblehub.com/romans/7-15.htm

Regards
DL

A tip for free: state your intentions before going down the rabbit hole. Strike one.

One of the excellent things about Kierkegaard's Works of Love is his insistence that we love one another.
The assignment of such a task is also the acceptance of how difficult it is.
That element is more important to me than figuring out the meaning of historical struggles.

You want to hate many things, to improve things, yet ignore that it is mankind who is doing the destroying and should be hated. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Nope, I don't ignore that.

We default to loving ourselves and each other and unless we change to what you dislike, nothing will change. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

So, what you are saying is 'my idea that we hate ourselves is the only approach that can work.' I don't think that approach will work, even the slightest. Good luck telling people to hate themselves. Let us know what your successes are with that approach here. You can post them in the thread. Along with the science or other evidence it is a worthy approach.

Love more like scriptures tell you to love, which is the way I love.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. — Gnostic [quote=

Correceth, is not hateth. And in current English to correct is not to hate and that father no doubt loves his son. And don't tell me how to love as if you know how I love - my son, my self, others. Nothing I have said even remotely implies I do not correceth. As you should know from your own experience.

You do not seem to want to love that much. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

No, what happened is I didn't agree with you and so you just assume a bunch of stuff. You're just another internet narcissist who cannot be criticized and so makes up stuff to justify not learning anything from others. iOW you cannot be correctethed. Which means a part of love you cannot experience.

the rabbit hole. — ISeeIDoIAm

Mind your own hole, junior league ump.

Regards
DL

insistence that we love one another. — Valentinus

He can insist all he likes.

Go ahead and explain how you would show your love to the rapist on your wife.

What of all the Christians who love a genocidal god?

Is that them loving their enemy?

You are positing an unconditional love and there is no such thing. It is not natural as love always has conditions to be real love. Like the need for reciprocity, works and deeds, which BTW, is how Jesus defined love.

Regards
DL

Correceth, is not hateth. — Coben

I never indicated it was while quoting that it is the loving thing to do. Reading comprehension is good.

So, what you are saying is 'my idea that we hate ourselves is the only approach that can work. — Coben

Loving sure has not worked. I did not qualify my views as the only approach. Stop putting you lies into my mouth, please.

As to your personal psychobabble. Shove it.

Regards
DL

Loving sure has not worked. I did not qualify my views as the only approach. Stop putting you lies into my mouth, please. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Oh, sure you did. Since I disagreed I MUST be ignoring the problem. So, if I don't agree with your approach, this entails that I cannot see the problem out there. Hence it could be the only approach. Read you own shit and take responsibility for your own mistakes in assumption. You act like something is entailed by what I wrote, when it isn't. If I don't agree with you the only possible cause is I don't notice the problem. Get it. Your assumptions.

Stop putting you lies into my mouth, please. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Duh. This from the guy who is telling me what I am not noticing when I do. Who is instructing me to correcteth, when I obviously do. You imply and assert shit all the time about other people. Taste of your own.

I never indicated it was while quoting that it is the loving thing to do. Reading comprehension is good. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That first sentence is pretty much unitelligible. In the context of our discussion about hating ourselves, you plop in a quote from scripture - appealing to the authority of books that you consider to be problematic - about a father correcting.

As if anything I said implied one should not correct or correcteth someone.

You implicitly conflated correcting someone with hating them.

Again, no responsibility for your own sloppy thinking as assumptions.

As to your personal psychobabble. Shove it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I did, right up yours.

And no response of substance at all anywhere, as per usual. Just shifting to other things, reasserting yourself and denying.

You are not a person who has the answers to saving the world.

You can't even manage a decent discussion without your surly assumptive bs.

Thanks for the chat.

Regards
DL

Might we not merely be annoyed with ourselves, or find ourselves dull or fractious, in order to survive?

i didn't cuss but it was a little too mean so i deleted it.

I see now you are not one to waste "breath" on. Thank you for stating your character clearly so that we might see your flavor of poison.

I could correct you, but I see no point.

Might we not merely be annoyed with ourselves, or find ourselves dull or fractious, in order to survive? — Ciceronianus the White

We are already as you describe and things are getting worse. I would add stupid to your list.

Regards
DL

i didn't cuss but it was a little too mean so i deleted it. — christian2017

If you thought it, you sinned. So says Jesus. Repent foul sinner. ;-)

Regards
DL

I could correct you, but I see no point. — ISeeIDoIAm

Thanks for showing your lying character.

You won this debate.

Regards
DL

Well...what you perceive as a lie.

In my opinion we both lost.

i didn't cuss but it was a little too mean so i deleted it.
— christian2017

If you thought it, you sinned. So says Jesus. Repent foul sinner. ;-)

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

i'm sorry Christian Bishop, can you tell Jesus for me?

i'm sorry Christian Bishop, can you tell Jesus for me? — christian2017

I'm not surprised you do not know him.

Scriptures show you how to know him but you are not interested in following the dictates of a moral man.

Too much of it goes against Christian beliefs.

Regards
DL

i'm sorry Christian Bishop, can you tell Jesus for me?
— christian2017

I'm not surprised you do not know him.

Scriptures show you how to know him but you are not interested in following the dictates of a moral man.

Too much of it goes against Christian beliefs.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

this is an online forum. How do you know how i act outside this forum? How would i prove if you are ethical and how would i prove if im ethical. Have you ever heard the phrase "lip service"?

How do you know how i act outside this forum? — christian2017

I did not speak of that.

How would i prove if you are ethical and how would i prove if im ethical. — christian2017

I would know your moral thinking by what you say. You could lie, sure, but your words are what I would be evaluating.

Regards
DL

How do you know how i act outside this forum?
— christian2017

I did not speak of that.

How would i prove if you are ethical and how would i prove if im ethical.
— christian2017

I would know your moral thinking by what you say. You could lie, sure, but your words are what I would be evaluating.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I asked you these questions earlier but you accused me with your age old phrase "your spew"

Would you like to answer these questions. Here they are once again?

You said you like a challenge many times. Can you answer these questions.

1. How do you feel about ancient temple prostitution in ancient Iraq.

2. Are you aware Joshua didn't commit genocide because there were plenty of Amorite cities in ancient Iraq at the time of Joshua. ~1300 BC.

3. If you killed someone's parents (Amorite/Canaanite) are you supposed to tell the surviving child "i murdered your parents, when you are a teenager you'll understand these adult things"

4. were there adoption agencies in the 2nd millenium?

5. Would you argue some behavior is worthy of capital punishment?

6. Were you aware that the Amorites were known for child sacrifice? The later Jews were too and i understand that . The Bible speaks against that.

7. Would you say the Amorite children (non-adults) went to heaven (assuming there is a heaven) after they were killed by the Israelites? I would say they would considering there is no explicit statement saying the children did anything relatively wrong nor does it say they suffered after they died. No explicit statement nor implied statement either.

How do you know how i act outside this forum?
— christian2017

I did not speak of that.

How would i prove if you are ethical and how would i prove if im ethical.
— christian2017

I would know your moral thinking by what you say. You could lie, sure, but your words are what I would be evaluating.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Your two quotes above contradict each other in light of the fact that, what people say isn't always what they do. This is a commonly understood concept in our society. Whence when i said earlier "lip service".

Are you aware genocide was very common among all cultures in ancient society's assuming Joshua commited genocide?

How does genocide directly (as opposed to indirectly) relate to the teachings of Jesus Christ? Is the Roman Papacy a good way to judge Christianity?