If you could have absolutely anything you wanted in all of its possible variety, all of it good, and yet you would still be bored and so displeased eventually, then there is still something you don’t have: interest, an internal quality, the opposite of boredom. It’s like if all the sex you could possibly want were available but you had no libido and that made you unhappy: the solution isn’t some weird new kind of sex, it’s the restoration of your libido.
If you could be of a mental state where everything around you is perceived either as a delightful pleasure (however small some of them may be) or an interesting challenge (however daunting some of them may be), then you could be happy all the time, in any circumstance. And feeling like that, life would seem worth living, and perpetuating. If life doesn’t seem worth living or perpetuating, perhaps the problem is not with the world (though it undoubtedly has plenty of problems too), but with you. — Pfhorrest
Human life must be some kind of mistake. The truth of this will be sufficiently obvious if we only remember that man is a compound of needs and necessities hard to satisfy; and that even when they are satisfied, all he obtains is a state of painlessness, where nothing remains to him but abandonment to boredom. This is direct proof that existence has no real value in itself; for what is boredom but the feeling of the emptiness of life? If life—the craving for which is the very essence of our being—were possessed of any positive intrinsic value, there would be no such thing as boredom at all: mere existence would satisfy us in itself, and we should want for nothing. But as it is, we take no delight in existence except when we are struggling for something; and then distance and difficulties to be overcome make our goal look as though it would satisfy us—an illusion which vanishes when we reach it; or else when we are occupied with some purely intellectual interest—when in reality we have stepped forth from life to look upon it from the outside, much after the manner of spectators at a play. And even sensual pleasure itself means nothing but a struggle and aspiration, ceasing the moment its aim is attained. Whenever we are not occupied in one of these ways, but cast upon existence itself, its vain and worthless nature is brought home to us; and this is what we mean by boredom. The hankering after what is strange and uncommon—an innate and ineradicable tendency of human nature—shows how glad we are at any interruption of that natural course of affairs which is so very tedious.] — Schopenhauer
There's a pill for the malfunctioning soul. 'It's not our problem, it's yours.' So here's advice and maybe a pill. I'm no better in this regard. I've been around desperate people and mostly I just clutched my valuables and guarded my own fragile happiness. I've regurgitated my philosophers to those with more chance of pulling through, but my strategy is more about meeting pessimism or despair half-way. The world is disgusting and absurd. That's not an illusion. But there are nice things too. I'm not necessarily correct when I give advice from my fragile happiness to their despair. It's just what people do when they are less troubled than those they are talking with, which is reach for the platitudes or profundities or black humor and demonstrate concern --which is stuff that may not help at all, since it's all deeper than mere thoughts. — jjAmEs
If life—the craving for which is the very essence of our being—were possessed of any positive intrinsic value, there would be no such thing as boredom at all: mere existence would satisfy us in itself, and we should want for nothing. — schopenhauer1
So if society perpetuates its dictates based on enculturating tricks, one of the more cunning ones is to make sure that the pessimist "knows" it is THEIR fault the foundations of existence have a negative value. See, by turning it on the experiencer as just their lack of participation in the good parts of existence, then existence itself can never get the bad rap. It's a clever meme that it's YOUR fault and thus the system is sound, the system is good, it is just your "malfunctioning" view. If we were to all see it for what it was, the Schopenhauer's suffering of the internal-psychological, external suffering of all the things that we encounter, then we would rebel. The rebellion would take the form of communal pessimism- knowing this isn't right to perpetuate unto the next generation. — schopenhauer1
As Schopenhauer stated, people like to have something to struggle for- I suspect the "interests deeply embedded" part. — schopenhauer1
It's an illusion, to just keep the merry-go-round. — schopenhauer1
It's a clever meme that it's YOUR fault and thus the system is sound, the system is good, it is just your "malfunctioning" view. — schopenhauer1
Sensual delights become repetitive, all of it. — schopenhauer1
It doesn't matter how many countries you go to, how many sexual adventures you have, foods you taste, mountains you climb, how many new books you read, people you know, products you produce, things you learn, or new experiences you purport to have. It is all repetitive again and again. It is all the fishbowl. — schopenhauer1
IOW life is meaningful if and only if someone finds it meaningful. There is no more that there could conceivably be to "meaning" than someone finding meaning in something. There are awful, dread- and angst-ridden states of mind in which everything seems meaningless, and so to a person in such a state of mind everything is meaningless, because the meaning lies in the state of mind. I expect that Schopie et al found themselves all too often in that state of mind. I've been there too. But I've also been in the opposite state of mind, the kind that religious folks and magical thinkers call a "religious" or "mystical" experience, which to me for a lot of my life was a common and thereby sort of "mundane" albeit still awesome experience, unlike the existential angst which only ever really hit me in force last year. — Pfhorrest
It is all repetitive again and again. It is all the fishbowl. Add to this negative experiences of pains and tragedies of all sorts. This just doesn't need to be continued for more people. Keep working. Keep enduring. Keep existing. That is the theme of the common man (informally optimistic) people. They don't question why. It is too sad for them to face reality so they keep running after the goals and are indignant if some see them for what they are.. consuming time, waiting. — schopenhauer1
system is sound, the system is good — schopenhauer1
My ultimate goal with the philosophical endeavor is to devise tactics and stratagems that obliterate systems. I credit Socratic Ignorance for aiding me with this. — Merkwurdichliebe
From the optimistic state of mind, it's clear that the intractable problems were always illusory, and the remaining problems are in principle tractable, and something we need to get to working on. — Pfhorrest
Life entails risk, certainly, but when I weigh the scales of life vs. no life I see no contest. It’s something or nothing. It’s being or nothing. — NOS4A2
The ultimate system is our own condition for survival, comfort, and entertainment, followed closely by social institutions that, by feeding individuals needs, grows its own epiphenomenal needs to survive and maintain itself. — schopenhauer1
And what's wrong with nothing? Nothing never hurt nothing. More to the point, why does there need to be something or somebody in the first place? What is your/their goal? — schopenhauer1
I agree, but then the system is also just relatively happy people protecting their relative happiness. IMV we are a fairly selfish species. We don't want our party interrupted. We don't think of the homeless as we initiate sex with a new partner or open our latest package from Amazon. We just don't generally feel the suffering or the pleasure of others. So 'suffering is your problem' is not just metaphysics but simply us all being in different bodies at different levels of health in different environments. — jjAmEs
The ultimate system sounds like a great target for annihilation. — Merkwurdichliebe
Well, nice! I'm glad you do! — schopenhauer1
So if society perpetuates its dictates based on enculturating tricks, one of the more cunning ones is to make sure that the pessimist "knows" it is THEIR fault the foundations of existence have a negative value. See, by turning it on the experiencer as just their lack of participation in the good parts of existence, then existence itself can never get the bad rap. It's a clever meme that it's YOUR fault and thus the system is sound, the system is good, it is just your "malfunctioning" view. — schopenhauer1
Exactly. Pessimism is always characterized in this way as a sort of moral failing - a personal weakness on the part of the one espousing it. The pessimist just needs to stop being so soft and weak minded, to stop being so pathetic and just get on with it like the rest of us. It is through this attacking of the pessimists character that the content of his or her arguments or views can just be tossed aside, much like the rantings of a drunk. I suspect it functions as a sort of defense mechanism - far easier to attack someones character than to confront your own pessimistic doubts and niggles buried deep within. — Inyenzi
I don't see how these "you're just depressed", "you are deficient", "you are weak-minded", responses are in any way an argument against antinatalism. I would think it's more proof for the opposite - why bring more children into the world when there is a possibility they will be afflicted by a malfunctioning mind that makes them see the entire human project as absurd and pointless? Why have children when they may suffer a deficiency in character that makes life seem a tedious process of bodily and social maintenance? There are zero reasons, for the child's sake, to take this risk. To 'be' unborn is the ultimate peace, why disturb it? — Inyenzi
They don't understand what I mean by the repetition and how it relates to any act and behavior we perform in our survival — schopenhauer1
There are zero reasons, for the child's sake, to take this risk. To 'be' unborn is the ultimate peace, why disturb it? — Inyenzi
Here's a problem for your perspective. Most people would decline a clean and painless exit from the world. To be sure, some people do commit suicide. And suicide rates would increase if it was made cleaner and easier and less taboo. But I suggest that most would choose to live. And that's an argument for uncertain life's positive expected value. The more philosophical argument against pessimism is simply to insist that value judgments aren't objective.
Have you seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive_(1993_film) ? Look what some people will do in the short term for an attachment to the apparent promise of a future known to be uncertain. This is why I'm in the tragicomic camp. Life is horrible in many ways but we are mostly in love with it, we poor curious masochists. — jjAmEs
1. We have a moral obligation not to create unhappy people and we have no moral obligation to create happy people. The reason why we think there is a moral obligation not to create unhappy people is that the presence of this suffering would be bad (for the sufferers) and the absence of the suffering is good (even though there is nobody to enjoy the absence of suffering). By contrast, the reason we think there is no moral obligation to create happy people is that although their pleasure would be good for them, the absence of pleasure when they do not come into existence will not be bad, because there will be no one who will be deprived of this good.
2. It is strange to mention the interests of a potential child as a reason why we decide to create them, and it is not strange to mention the interests of a potential child as a reason why we decide not to create them. That the child may be happy is not a morally important reason to create them. By contrast, that the child may be unhappy is an important moral reason not to create them. If it were the case that the absence of pleasure is bad even if someone does not exist to experience its absence, then we would have a significant moral reason to create a child and to create as many children as possible. And if it were not the case that the absence of pain is good even if someone does not exist to experience this good, then we would not have a significant moral reason not to create a child.
3. Someday we can regret for the sake of a person whose existence was conditional on our decision, that we created them – a person can be unhappy and the presence of their pain would be a bad thing. But we will never feel regret for the sake of a person whose existence was conditional on our decision, that we did not create them – a person will not be deprived of happiness, because he or she will never exist, and the absence of happiness will not be bad, because there will be no one who will be deprived of this good.
4. We feel sadness by the fact that somewhere people come into existence and suffer, and we feel no sadness by the fact that somewhere people did not come into existence in a place where there are happy people. When we know that somewhere people came into existence and suffer, we feel compassion. The fact that on some deserted island or planet people did not come into existence and suffer is good. This is because the absence of pain is good even when there is not someone who is experiencing this good. On the other hand, we do not feel sadness by the fact that on some deserted island or planet people did not come into existence and are not happy. This is because the absence of pleasure is bad only when someone exists to be deprived of this good.[8]
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