Not at all a defense, — tim wood

My first defence that you put words into my mouth was fairly successful though. That was more an attack than a defence, just a rather gentle one. But have you seen the horrible things I say about my own country?

Sorry, missed some of this, are we boycotting America and Israel for torture, false imprisonment, apartheid, failure to comply with UN resolutions and electing an odd orange thing, possibly human, as President? Happy to throw in China if necessary.

Fuck it, add the UK, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and dozens of others to that. The political pestilence is almost as widespread as the biological one.

Careful you wouldn't want to knee the keyboard in the balls and give yourself a dead leg on top of your hurt leg ;)

Looks like there's a backlash against globalisation and it's the right who's gunning for it.

:lol:

Nope, although I have observed a lot of gratuitous vitriol about a lot of things. Mainly I take you for one of the smarter guys, so when I see you chanting group-think with placard in hand, I wonder what's up with that. If you want to complain about the US, what it is, what it was, what it is doing or what it has done, join the queue; and there's more than enough material to obviate any need for anyone's party line.

There are plenty of binary divisions possible in describing or complaining about the US. Real/ideal, de facto/de jure, and whatever else you can think of. But it's all more on a continuum, and all a work always in progress, not always forward. Try to be a little more substantive; lacking substance is just noise. Here's one possibility, though in saying it I fear I use it up: that Americans have evolved to a state of stunning stupidity with respect to their own politics, their own real interests, and what their nation is and should be. Agree?

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/boycotting-israeli-dates-working-200423103555231.html

So you should only boycott countries that engage in racism...nothing else warrants a boycott. The Chinese can bang people up just for being gay , muslim or pro-democracy, the liberal left is alright with that. — Chester

My point was that China is one of the least diverse countries in the world, and in which citizens have fewer freedoms and CHOICE, like women getting to decide if and when they want to have a child or not, yet the left gives the country a pass over more diverse countries and more CHOICE.

This is just more examples of how politics warps your brain and skews your perspective of the world. Politics is no different than religion.

I accept that many goods are sub-contracted out to China for manufacture but it is also true that virtually any product you want can be sourced elsewhere. Obviously it's impossible to avoid all Chinese parts within goods but that is not an excuse for no action. I see that Samsung no longer manufacture phones in China...so swap iphones for Samsungs until Apple starts to re-locate.

My main point is that the middle class liberal left ,that so dominate the discourse in the West with regard to how we should live, have no problem buying products from a company that outsources to a despotic regime . Liberal leftists also like to bleat about climate change a lot too...guess who the biggest polluter on the planet is...the one making their phones.

It's just outright two-faced bs from the virtue signalling "establishment" types. The fact that the liberal left gives China a free pass totally discredits them.

My point is that it is not the political rights that constantly bleats about workers rights . It is the liberal left that pretends to care.

What you say about poorer people in the West being dependent on cheap Chinese goods is true to a degree , but better quality goods that cost more but last longer are just as valid for the poor...plus it has the benefit of being better for the planet.

But all this disregards that Apple make extremely expensive items that most people don't actually need ( eg ,buy a Samsung phone instead) ...the liberal left chooses to buy them whilst pretending to care about the poor and the planet. This thread is about that two-facedness .

Globalism is really an excuse to exploit cheaper labour and have less stringent environmental/safety standards...and like you say it is the "right" that is rebelling whilst the virtue signally left stands by.

I agree with you Harry, as I've said , it's the left that is colluding in the exploitation whilst pretending to be the ones who care.

The left also mistake big business for being right wing when it is clear that huge businesses are supportive of the liberal, globalist left. There is a clear tie up between liberal leftist politics and organisations like Facebook.

The US is the biggest polluter if you take into consideration the numbers on a person to person basis rather than pointing out that countries with over a billion people pump out waste.

Have you thrown everything with ‘made in China’ out? Chances are you probably can’t tell where the materials come from for the products you own.

Basically I don’t understand your rant. You’re upset with everyone who is middle-class and liberal because, y’know, they’re all alike ... surely you see how that kind of view doesn’t help anyone really.

My point is that it is not the political rights that constantly bleats about workers rights . It is the liberal left that pretends to care. — Chester

What would "not pretending to care" look like? I can think of a few scenarios for it:

(1) Yeah I don't actually care about workers in China, we need them to be a hair's breadth from slave labour for various reasons.

That's not pretending to care by simply not caring. That's clearly not acceptable, right?

(2) I care about worker's rights in China, but I have little to no influence over working conditions in China. I'll try to buy things that are ethically sourced, and that eventually will help workers in China.

That seems well intentioned but ultimately more of a salve to someone's sense of propriety than anything effective for workers in China; if you buy from a "more ethical" company, you're usually still giving money in support to human rights violators, companies are legally mandated to favour the bottom line over human rights; so long as the human rights violations are legal somewhere, your race to the bottom will end up there.

(3) I care about worker's rights in China, but I believe that my individual consumer choices don't matter much for their livelihood.

Seems defensible to me. How can I be expected to change the world when it's not a political option for me, but it is a political option for a government? I have no place in the closed rooms where decisions are made; and those decisions force me, and you, to live in hypocrisy every day. Maybe you buy from Asda but don't buy their clothes, grats, they're still going to use those profits to support importing from China.

(4) I care about worker's rights in China, my consumer choices matter, but I can't afford to buy more ethically sourced goods.

Say you're over 25 and living in London, working a full time job for minimum wage. You make £18137.60 per year, working 52 times 40 hour weeks in a year. After tax and personal allowance, that would be £17010.08. If you use median yearly rent for London, you end up at about £5000 yearly income after tax and rent. I'm sure you know how much skimping you have to do on that, that $5000 has to cover every expense besides rent. For a year. In the most expensive area in Britain, in one of the most expensive areas in the world.

If you worked it out per month, that gives you £344 for the month using the same median rent (before tax). You do not have enough to cover surprise expenses. You have to make choices between normal social opportunities like going out with your friends or going to the gym. The situation only gets more bleak if they have dependents.

And someone in this position, you'd call them a hypocrite if they cared about human rights violations in China and made well meaning Tweets about it while being just as powerless as you. You reserve the right to say "I'm so virtuous I'll call out all the people who care despite living in the same inescapable hypocrisy as me", as if it makes you better, as if you're doing anything but shitting downwind and pretending it doesn't smell.

It's not even your poop man! It's Chinese manufacturing's and international state-corporate collusion's poop!

China may possibly build an additional 500 coal fired power stations by 2030...2 a week. You seem not to understand the magnitude of the Chinese threat to the World's well being...both political and environmental. We're constantly bleated at by the liberal left media, politicians and bang-on liberal lefty ngo's and businesses that we must cut back on pollution and treat people with respect (unless they are conservatives lol)...but again the liberal left gives China a free pass. China spreads a dangerous virus around the world that kills thousands and could lead to a depression...but again the liberal left gives China a free pass and tries to blame Trump for it.

It almost seems as though the liberal left has sold out...it attacks Western governments but keeps quiet about the Chinese.In my opinion those that believe in western ideals needs to point out the appeasement of the liberal left, push them aside and take action against the CCP . That action involves trying to avoid purchasing Chinese products where possible and forcing them to pay for the damage they have done by placing taxes on their exports...it's not like they could retaliate, the trade imbalance is huge.

I am not a rich person , I'm a roofer but I can choose not to buy Chinese goods. Your argument seems to imply that poor(er) people are unable to choose better options with regard to what they purchase...they will always buy the cheapest goods, but again that is false...most poorer people I know buy named brands ...would actually prefer debt to shoddy clothing. That is the atmosphere we have created through fashion, entertainment and media (liberal left bastions).

The liberal left are generally the spoiled middle classes, those that have most benefited from the status quo , those that are most likely to buy Apple products made by slave labour in factories run on coal fired electricity , spewing pollution into the neighbouring environment. But it's all ok provided the image is right, provided the right level of virtue signalling is put out.

I hear just as much bleating from both sides. Nothing new.

Have fun.

our argument seems to imply that poor(er) people are unable to choose better options with regard to what they purchase...they will always buy the cheapest goods, — Chester

Nah. My argument is that there are major incentives to buy them, not that everyone buys them. It's financially responsible (something I assume you like) to buy cheaply when in a position that surprise expenses are troubling or catastrophic, and if you don't have enough for savings etc etc. Buying cheaply usually means going to either a charity shop or supporting human rights violations through your purchases, buying cheaply means you have more left over for savings. Being financially responsible is more likely to make you violate human rights when you're poorer; and I guess, not being a member of the "spoiled middle classes" yourself, this applies to you equally..

It is not the liberal left's fault that companies use Chinese labour, it is Chinese politics' fault, and our government's fault for allowing it in our country. If you're in government, and you, your friends and donors need these human rights violations to continue for their profits (which applies to Labour and the Tories), they're gonna continue. It won't be put to a vote. You won't get to "have your say". So people, rightfully frustrated by all this, are going to do whatever they can that makes them feel like they have a voice. "Share this on Twitter, solidarity with Chinese workers!", they're people finding their voices in the death rattle of a form of democratic politics which no longer has any relevance or import; a public forum. The same can be said of us talking shit like this on a forum, how wretched we are.

It benefits our corporate crony government for this to be framed as a matter of individual consumer choice (which you're falling for hook line and sinker), because that means they don't have any responsibility for curtailing or sanctioning Chinese imports. Vote with your money! (Our investors have the most money btw). You're thinking in terms of boycotts, which promote individual actions without giving any means of organising them. If it takes an organised effort to make a dent, why not intervene in government for that?

But of course, we can't intervene in government, we never get the choice of whether our establishment will support human rights violations abroad. So, presumably, all we have left are little crumbs of action like consumer choices. And really, as disgusting as it is to wash one's hands of systemic problems like this by buying "ethical products", or sharing a Tweet, it's far, far more disgusting to keep it swept under the rug because it benefits the corporate interest saturated nightmare we call a state. It's not you that's doing this, it's not you that is keeping the inhumane production chains in a state of brutal discipline, so why in the hell are you directing all that hate towards people in much the same position of powerlessness as you? Why are you better than them?

In America at least it was both left and right who believed that, with a little liberalization, China would become just like us. Though opening the markets and privatizing land saved China from another looming famine and largely lifted the nation from extreme poverty, the Communist party still rules, meaning democracy and political freedom are out of the question. Hence the repression of dissidents and minorities, the censorship and propaganda.

I think it is accurate to say that China’s “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” is a form of state capitalism, but not the state capitalism of say Norway. It is a Communist state capitalism, where a Communist political party reap all the benefits of economic liberalization and privatization (often at the expense of their own people) with their stated goal of achieving Communism.

As some commentators have predicted, China’s rise to power will heavily alter the political and cultural landscape of the future. China’s entrance into the world market has made them a big player. Now western companies and bureaucracies have to kowtow to Chinese influence, for fear of loosing that market. Unfortunately China’s rise hasn’t made them more like us; it has made us more like them.

Globalism is really an excuse to exploit cheaper labour and have less stringent environmental/safety standards...and like you say it is the "right" that is rebelling whilst the virtue signally left stands by.

The right said bring it on, now they realise their own economies have been undercut by it, they are putting up the barriers. The left certainly in the UK have been in the doldrums and powerless unlookers during the charade.

I've already said the government should put taxes on Chinese goods. I also think the UK government should ban Huawei from building our 5G network...but there is also a place for individual action. A lot of people in the UK are very angry at what the Chinese have done and a boycott movement could come into being.

You've said it so much better than I could, cheers.

I've already said the government should put taxes on Chinese goods. — Chester

Stop virtue signalling.

A lot of people in the UK are very angry at what the Chinese have done and a boycott movement could come into being. — Chester

Are you working towards a boycott movement? What're you doing that makes it more likely for other people to stop buying Chinese goods?

As some commentators have predicted, China’s rise to power will heavily alter the political and cultural landscape of the future. China’s entrance into the world market has made them a big player. Now western companies and bureaucracies have to kowtow to Chinese influence, for fear of loosing that market. Unfortunately China’s rise hasn’t made them more like us; it has made us more like them. — NOS4A2

It's not like companies had conniptions about outsourcing manufacturing labour to other countries that brutally discipline their labour forces. Turning a blind eye to human rights violations isn't a specifically Chinese thing, it's a political and corporate job requirement.

I don't think that the Conservative governments of the past decade have been right-wing at all...they are overwhelmingly social democrats...with a minority (like the ERG) being true Conservative.

Things have changed too because most working class people vote Conservative, the Labour party is now the bastion of middle class metropolitan types...who think they are really clever but fuck up everything they touch...probably because many of them were raised and live in privileged protected environments, safe spaces.

I just talk to people , I'd say I'm fairly persuasive ...but it's up to them. People on the right don't generally go on marches , or hang about outside embassies...we've usually got a living to earn.

People on the right don't generally go on marches — Chester

:groan:

I just talk to people , I'd say I'm fairly persuasive ...but it's up to them — Chester

You're doing exactly the same shit you were criticising in the original post.

"Why don't the liberal left boycott goods manufactured by despotic regimes ? I've never once seen the left initiate such a boycott...apart from South Africa during apartheid . Why is China acceptable but the old South Africa not ?"

How does what I wrote in the OP correlate to what you wrote in your last post?

Marching is generally carried out by the left in order to virtue signal.

When I talk to people about what China has done , the evils it has carried out while the liberal left turns a blind eye, I try to convince them to boycott Chinese goods.

By the way, I'm not racist, I still enjoy a good Chinese take-away...I had one a couple of days ago to show my support to their community.:)

I boycott all North Korean goods. Sure, it's difficult around Christmas when looking for that perfect gift, but it's the least I can do to de-fund their nuclear program.