If you answer my ?, then I answer your ? Seems fair.

I don't know if the points I have made about Brexit over the last year can be reduced that way.
Can you give me a single tangible benefit of Brexit?

Slowly they are realising that once there is regulatory and tariff divergence from the EU, that many farmers will have tariffs of around 40% imposed from their main markets. And that when the lower US food standards flood the market with cheaper food, which has been acknowledged this week by the trade secretary. The farmers will be unable to compete and most of them will go out of business. — Punshhh

I believe the 40% figure is for UK lamb exports, and assumes no EU trade deal is reached and we fall back to WTO rules. That doesnt seem likely, especially as the EU fishermen want some of the 35% of UK fisheries they catch to be maintained. Some sort of bargain should be reached I think. The big hit for the UK could be dominance of London's financial services, which the EU wants to reign back. I think Boris will reflect he has fewer voters to lose in the City than in the shires and coastal towns..

As for cheap US food imports, you talk as if the trade deal has already been done. It hasn't..

https://www.nu.nl/279380/video/johnson-ik-schudde-handen-in-ziekenhuis-met-coronapatienten.html?jwsource=cl

ok... let's hope he's seeing Trump soon?

He said that as a source of pride?

I must miss the finer points of the English language but that's what it sounded like to me.

Don't worry guys, when he says 'everybody' he doesn't mean cripples, peasants, and foreigners - you're quite safe.

David Frost the chief UK negotiator has responded to requests to extend the implementation period, which must be requested at the end of June, has said there is no way an extension will be requested and has been legislated for on that timescale. So basically the government is saying the UK will leave the EU agreed trade deal, or no trade deal on 31st December 2020.

Considering the pandemic and subsequent economic depression with no certainty on how it will develop, this is highly irresponsible and will cause an almighty row once it gets into the media.

Now we see the rightwing fundamentalists in No10 in their true light and the people who voted for these snake oil salesmen are going to regret it.

I can't wait for the proverbial to hit the fan.

Wrong analysis I'm afraid. Politically this is the smartest move; everything bad can be blamed on covid-19.

From the perspective of the hard Brexiters it is a political master stroke. But they were never in the majority, they relied on a large group of soft Brexiters who were not ideologically motivated, but they thought that leaving was beneficial in terms of immigration, or sovereignty. These people did not sign up to a no trade deal Brexit with the collateral damage it would result in.

Also and the reason I say the proverbial will hit the fan, it will cause a split at the heart of the Conservative party, putting at risk the majority in Parliament.

So present those moderate Brexiters with a no trade deal, an up yours EU strategy with the irresponsibility of continuing on this course during an existential pandemic. I seriously doubt the government could maintain its support.

Remember that the government majority was built on a fear of socialism, rather than a wholehearted support for Brexit. That that threat is now reduced and the government is now inadvertently implementing those very policies, in essence and we are not going to hell in a hand cart, the threat of socialism has lost traction.

I suspect that Johnson will present a moderate tone when he returns to work. His place in history is in serious peril at the moment, he won't want to keep digging.

Get Covid done. As Machiavelli said, get the nasty stuff done quickly at the beginning of your reign, and then you can be the kind generous leader afterwards to the folks that are left. Dead men do not rebel, and nor do they vote. Give the NHS the clap! And stay at home til it's too late.

soft Brexiters who were not ideologically motivated, but they thought that leaving was beneficial in terms of immigration, or sovereignty. These people did not sign up to a no trade deal Brexit with the collateral damage it would result in. — Punshhh

Maybe. The other probability is, that they've already said A and therefore will say B. In the art of persuasion a small concession opens the way to larger ones. So you look at this from a psychological perspective where you never agreed to the initial plan, but the soft Brexiteers already conceded to that. It's psychologically much more likely for them to acquiesce to a hard Brexit as a result.

Yes, mission creep. It can take you from agreeing to Brexit on the understanding that it will be economically beneficial and returns the sovereignty lost to the EU. To being ok with an economic recession, a falling out with the EU and only having basic World Trade Organisation trade arrangements with any country in the world and having no better access to Europe than a third country.

Get Covid done. As Machiavelli said, get the nasty stuff done quickly at the beginning of your reign, and then you can be the kind generous leader afterwards to the folks that are left. — unenlightened

I think this is a great time to do your Brexit. It can be possible that nobody will notice anything!

The world economy is already collapsing to an economic depression and the reasons aren't solely the pandemic. In fact the pandemic was just a trigger. You simply cannot notice anything happening because of the Brexit now, already there are far bigger transformations happening. There isn't going to be a "V"-shaped recovery from this. Hence to reshuffle your trade with the EU isn't going to be on lips of every voter, they will be far more worried about the dire economic situation even without a Brexit.

I have to agree with you to a degree here. There is a significant difference between the two kinds of economic failure though. The Covid failure is essentially a state of economic stasis, life support. Whereas the Brexit failure is systemic, with a large proportion of the UK's economic interaction having to be restructured. In ways which are very uncertain and to a large degree dependent on a set of incompetent, protracted and I predict increasingly hostile, negotiations.

For example there are many goods crossing the Channel both ways which will or will not be viable depending on the future tarif and regulatory frameworks. Details which are treated with contempt and indifference on the UK side and of importance on the EU side. So what happens to the UK fishermen, or sheep farmers during this tussle? Or service providers?

The very fact that the UK administration is cavalier in its behaviour is destructive of both politics and livelihoods in a deeply irresponsible way. Not to mention the Union, the United Kingdom.

Every country is going now to the unknown. And this changes things a lot. Because for the UK the Brexit was a self induced problem. Just think of it, for how much time has the UK administrations (this one and the previous) have been focused on the Brexit issue? I do assume that there would be other things for the administration to focus on too. Now there's one that has really sidelined Brexit. Or is the TV news talking about Brexit every day there? I assume not.

Anyway, let's remember that the EU was founded as the EEC in 1957 and only in 1973 the UK joined in. The UK never felt to be a team player as it has had the juxtaposition to being the British Isles vs. the European Continent throughout it's history. Only perhaps the Angevin kings had other views about "Continental Europe". And especially with Thatcher it was evident that there was nothing like the French-German axis, no UK lead group in the EU or a possibility that the UK would be the leader of the pack. That would have meant a dramatically different history in the UK to be true. The EEC wasn't a British idea developed in the City of London or in the halls of Oxford or Cambridge and created from a necessity. Yes, there was Churchill with the idea of a Council of Europe, but he adamantly saw the UK as Great Power. Federalism was never a British objective, only the reality of a confederation among independent sovereign states. And that's the sad part of the UK leaving.

Yet just like with Norway or Switzerland, not being a member of the EU isn't so important. You simply cannot make the populist complains about Brussels as we do anymore. (Or you can, but they don't have anything to do with reality.)

Yes, it is only the way the Tory's have handled Brexit following the referendum which I am highly critical of. The decision itself I am reconciled with, while continuing to see it as a mistake for the reasons I have laid out in this thread.

The problem, as I have highlighted, now is the wreckless behaviour of the government which will destroy the goodwill between the UK and Europe and looks like it will destroy the UK Union as well.

This destructive aspect is not at all necessary and will damage the country. They are like demented children, mad Conquistadors.

Now that they have been thrust into the midst of a global pandemic in which the solution means destroying your own economy they find themselves in their ultimate nightmare. They are having to follow a course directly oppsing that which they were intending. They are now more socialist than Corbyn, because there is no alternative, while just a few weeks ago they condemned that kind of socialism as dementedly destructive.

Their heads are spinning and in the media today, the media is beginning to turn on Johnson and his government. Especially the rightwing tabloid press who supported him to get into power and secure Brexit.

Yesterday Michel Barnier gave a speech pointing out that there has been no progress in the trade talks between the UK and the EU. That the UK team is not engaging seriously and repeatedly presents its dogmatic starting position as the way it is going to be, or no deal. The concerns presented by the EU negotiators are ingnored. Basically the talks are going nowhere and the UK refuses to discuss the possibility that the transition period might be extended, which must be requested by the end of June.

Can see it now.

"EU refuses to negotiate with Britain on fair terms, leading to no deal arrangement"
"If only the EU were willing to negotiate with us fairly, openly, honestly, we could have had a fair deal on the table. No deal is better than a bad deal."

Our lords and masters get to look like heroes reluctantly doing what they must, when it was really what they intended all along, while vilifying the EU even more.

My earlier post seems to have vanished...the main point is the key benefit of Brexit is that we will have less politicians interfering in our lives. Too many politicians are as bad as too few, they become a separate elite out of touch with the realities of normal people...you only have to look at their wages and expenses to realise this.

Quite, and they are probably lining up Coronavirus to blame for the economic hit.
There are some big holes in this strategy though and a risk that they will alienate some of their support by pushing ahead while supposedly straining every sinew to save lives and livelihoods in the throws of a global pandemic.

James O Brian draws a comparison with some Brexit slogans, such as, "you lost get over it", now it could be, "they died get over it". Or the idea that according to Brexiters, it's ok to have economic damage in return for blue passports, whereas it's not ok to have economic damage and save lives in a global pandemic (some Brexiters have come out now to say that the lockdown is doing to much damage and we should get back to work).

Brexit was power consolidation of the political class you're railing against. The same people that want the UK out of EU trading and tax transparency standards have bought a government that wants the UK to default to international law on the matter.

The European Union was a failure from the start. And now we're seeing it. It's a total fantasy project.

It's the opposite of a political power grab...it clearly involves less politicians that will become more accountable to their electorate.

You have to really doubt the motives of those that want more , less accountable politicians, you have to doubt those that seek to create an elite , highly paid ,group of politicians that are ever more isolated from the people ...it's the opposite of democracy..

Anyone that takes notice of O Brien isn't to be taken seriously.

It's the opposite of a political power grab...it clearly involves less politicians that will become more accountable to their electorate. — Chester

... Are you serious about the idea that less politicians means more accountability? Where did you get it?

Where have you been the last three years, I need someone to debate with. Brexiters are thin on the ground around here. I wonder why that is?

I have a theory that too many politicians becomes as bad as too few...especially when they become ever more separated from the electorate. The EU is a perfect example where commissars get to decide on what politicians can vote on. That's why the EU is generally at odds with the majority of EU citizens. The EU is also appallingly corrupt and expensive to run ...I believe there are at least 10,000 bureaucrats within the EU establishment that earn more than the British Prime minister.

Brexiteers probably get fed up listening to the condescending attitude of dickwads like O Brien...and the debate is already won, we have left.

People aren't as stupid as those on the liberal left think, just because most Brexiteers haven't been to Uni and learned the art of talking absolute bollox (I'm an exception lol:)) people like you shouldn't underestimate the will of most people to leave an organisation that is clearly utterly corrupt.

The corruption card is a populist red herring. You'll have to do better than that

I don't think your theory makes much sense, it doesn't respect thresh-holds. Say the limit is 10 politicians, and that can be a just arrangement, suddenly 1 more gets employed and they're necessarily corrupt.

But you probably don't mean it like that, you're looking at them and saying "look at all that bureaucracy, it's so inefficient!". But inefficient compared to what? I mean, do you believe that the UK will somehow magically become more efficiently run by defaulting to international law arrangements on trade, despite all the border problems that will kill businesses

The EU is a perfect example where commissars get to decide on what politicians can vote on. That's why the EU is generally at odds with the majority of EU citizens. — Chester

What specifically do you think the EU has influence over in a member state that violates the interests of its members?

.

People aren't as stupid as those on the liberal left think, just because most Brexiteers haven't been to Uni and learned the art of talking absolute bollox (I'm an exception lol:)) people like you shouldn't underestimate the will of most people to leave an organisation that is clearly utterly corrupt. — Chester

And you shouldn't underestimate the effects of a gigantic, personalised-ad style propaganda campaign and a political class that lied, over and over again, about the effects the EU are having on the UK on public opinion on the matter. It's not that people are stupid, it's that if you saturate discourse with lies and misinformation, people will believe lies and misinformation. If everyone ends up believing that everyone else is informed by lies and misinformation, so much the better for promoting a state of numb apathetic helplessness. Like rats in a cage who get shocked randomly.

Besides vague sentiments about sovereignty and small government being better, what do you actually think will be better off after Brexit? What are your predicted improvements?

We're going to have the same loopy political class that's intent on turning Britain into rich man's playground, only now it won't have to try and keep to EU human rights legislation (not that Britain has a great record on that on all fronts), and it won't benefit from EU trading rules regarding medicine.

I mean, these people blamed all of Britain's ills on the EU despite being exactly those who made policy that promoted the shambles Britain is turning into. We had enough autonomy to make stupid fucking decisions