Trust is a universal force analogous to gravity. Without trust people would literally fall apart, one from another. I walk down the street trusting that no one will start attacking me with a machete. I go into a shop to buy milk trusting that I will not be given bleach, and pay with money that I trust is not counterfeit or a card that I trust will register in some place I trust without the least clue where it is, the correct amount of money. — unenlightened
Do you guys not walk down streets or buy stuff in shops? — unenlightened
When trust is lost, there are laws and punishments and hierarchies of watchdogs watching each other. But trust is not restored, except by honesty. — unenlightened
We only know if someone is honest if we are able to otherwise find the truth. — Hanover
Maybe we've lost trust, but we've found truth. — Hanover
I don't know who you think has found truth and lost trust, or how or when this happened. I ask you the same question - do you walk down the street and buy stuff in the shops, travel on public transport, fire bullets made in a factory, let the dentist near your face with his needles and drills? Then you haven't lost trust. — unenlightened
Exactly. It's subjective. Some people give some of their decision-making power to others because making decisions is hard for them. How much power someone is willing to give up is subjective, so how much power a government should have is subjective and therefore shouldn't be imposed on others who can make most of the decisions for themselves. There is no government that one size fits all. That's the whole point.too much power
— Harry Hindu
How much is too much? My milk provider has the power of life and death over me, because I drink the stuff without testing it. Think bus driver rather than supreme leader. — unenlightened
Well, sure, total trust has not been lost — Hanover
It's subjective. — Harry Hindu
How much power someone is willing to give up is subjective, — Harry Hindu
Some people who have had bad experiences become paranoid or anxious, poor fellows. — unenlightened
Economists call it 'confidence' and measure it. It is real, it is social, it is the glue of society, and the media that betray it are more destructive than war and terrorism. — unenlightened
I find it exhausting and rather not expose myself. — Shawn
Should God be trusted if not Google? — Shawn
So what level of trust is enough for a functioning society? Do you trust scientists? Do you trust hospitals? Do you trust your mechanic not to tamper with the breaks? The building blocks around trust are many more than "if there's a chance of abuse, there will be abuse". — Christoffer
We can't get rid of the risk of abuse without losing freedom, so we can only minimize it. Repercussions to companies conducting such abuse, risk of closure, legal actions etc. Alongside that the risk of the business losing the trust of the customers which is a major part of having a business running. Risking that trust is not a good business strategy and doing so requires extreme measures that could be even riskier. — Christoffer
Do you guys not walk down streets or buy stuff in shops? Of course you all do. So at every point you put your trust in others. — unenlightened
I switch the light on trusting that it has been wired up so it doesn't give me a shock or set fire to the house. We need to trust. therefore we need to be honest. — unenlightened
I'm saying we all depend for our lives on the decency of strangers and neighbours. — unenlightened
I don't look at this as a matter of trust. I do business with a lot of different people, many of whom I don't particularly trust, the question of whether I trust them or not just doesn't come up in my mind. — Metaphysician Undercover
Trust being a firm belief, hope being a less than firm belief. — Metaphysician Undercover
I don't want to get into a mere terminological dispute, but trust is not a firm belief. — unenlightened
But by trust I really mean the absence of doubt, not even wondering if there is a sniper somewhere across the road. — unenlightened
The whole premise of this thread is wrong.How much power someone is willing to give up is subjective,
— Harry Hindu
Well no Harry, the whole premise of this thread is that it is not subjective and there is no choice. Every aspect of modern live relies on other people behaving responsibly, as a matter of life and death and this is inescapable. I have already given many examples of everyday life that require trust, because everyday folks have each other's life in their hands giving injections, footing ladders, driving vehicles, building houses. The government merely conducts this orchestra of mutual trust. These are facts, not subjective at all. — unenlightened
And we wouldn't need a police force or laws if we trusted each other.If there was trust money wouldn't be involved. It's a contract, and people that trust each other don't need them. — neonspectraltoast
I don't look at this as a matter of trust. I do business with a lot of different people, many of whom I don't particularly trust, the question of whether I trust them or not just doesn't come up in my mind. The situation is more like one of need. I need the service they offer, so I do business with them without thinking about whether or not I ought to trust them. You, and unenlightened, might argue that the fact I do choose to do business with them implies that I trust them. I don't think that way, and I know that I do business with a few whom I particularly don't trust. I just need to be more wary of these people. — Metaphysician Undercover
I think you have hit upon the stumbling block for many here. This is the naivety of trust, that it does not occur to one to do otherwise. The veteran of Afghanistan who has a panic attack whenever he see[s a curtain twitch has lost his trust in the benignity of strangers. To those of us who have not experienced the constant danger of snipers, it seems a bit mad - we call it PTSD. Why would you think a moving curtain is dangerous? — unenlightened
So I would look at the Google issue more as a question of need. If they offer a service which is needed, then we use it, whether or not we trust them. But doing business with someone whom you do not particularly trust means that you need to be wary. We could assume, that just like doing business with anyone else, the company would want to give us honest service to maintain a reputation, but such assumptions are what leave us vulnerable. — Metaphysician Undercover
I want to restrict "trust" to a higher level, reserving it only for use in cases of proven reliability. — Metaphysician Undercover
We use trust when we mean need or dependence. As we look at money, which is a social construct around trust, need, necessity for the cogs of society to work etc. As we talk about trust we will bend the word and its definition into many different types of interpretations. But they are indeed different versions of the same concept and the concept is the core we need to discuss. — Christoffer
or at least that is what this "left-leaning" forum has led us to believe. — Harry Hindu
Excellent. This is where I want to start, with our inescapable mutual dependence. I switch the light on trusting that it has been wired up so it doesn't give me a shock or set fire to the house. We need to trust. therefore we need to be honest. We need to communicate, therefore we need to be honest.
All this mistrust is macho posing, and chronic anxiety. But at the same time it is being normalised by the media and by politics - and alas, by philosophy. — unenlightened
For example, is Trump a great big fat liar of grander proportions than we've ever known such that we need to rethink where we are and thereby return to our purer state? Or, have our leaders always been big fat liars, but we're just now more leery? I think it's the latter really, as I think about leaders the world over and throughout history. — Hanover
What you need is one of those lamps with a genie in it. P'raps Jeff Bezos will lend you his?After all, I just want to be treated as I'd like to be treated myself. The rest, as they say, is commentary upon that. — Hanover
As we look at money, which is a social construct around trust, need, necessity for the cogs of society to work etc. — Christoffer
But they are indeed different versions of the same concept and the concept is the core we need to discuss. — Christoffer
Exactly, but I think that's the thing here, trust is need, is a necessity, is a contract. — Christoffer
Can we trust them to do their best to be moral against their customers? Yes. — Christoffer
So the core is the trust of a child that relaxes completely into the arms of an adult, with no consideration of negative consequences - being crushed or being dropped. — unenlightened
We used to believe in the freedom of the web, until the pedophiles spoilt it for us. — unenlightened
We all understand that thou shalt not lie. — Hanover
Well, yeah. That sounds logical.It is almost as if you are saying that because there is a lot of distrust in the world, there cannot also be a lot of trust. — unenlightened
You're confusing trust with expectation. Trust is analogous to faith. Expectations are strong beliefs in what will, or is suppose to, happen based on prior experience or knowledge.Do you guys not walk down streets or buy stuff in shops? Of course you all do. So at every point you put your trust in others. You are playing at the sophistication of mistrust for rhetorical or egotistic purposes. Stop it now, because this a is rather serious matter that requires some thought and a rigorous honesty. — unenlightened
So you tell me, Unenlightened: how much trust vs distrust is in the world, — Harry Hindu
So there has to be more trust than distrust in the world or society would collapse. I think society is close to collapse right now. — unenlightened
I agree our leaders have always been big fat liars, but I disagree we are more leery. Au contraire, we are much less leery; our leaders can now tell blatant lies that everyone can see are blatant lies, then contradict themselves, and then accuse their critics of being liars. In the good old days, they didn't usually get caught out, but if they did they were booted out. Well perhaps that was never the universal tradition, I'm not sure. — unenlightened
This assumes that karma controls the world. I'd love to think that North Korea will fall due to the falsehoods and propaganda it imposes on its citizens. Sort through history and consider every time and every leader, and do we see that their demise is owed to the collapse of truth and honesty within the society? Do we really see that time and time again the innocent and pure rise and take power because there is no more assured way to success than by embracing righteousness? I really don't think so.So there has to be more trust than distrust in the world or society would collapse. I think society is close to collapse right now. So I am telling you, and anyone who is prepared to listen, that we all need to trust, and need the truth to be told, and need to cooperate, or we will not survive. Like the boy who cried 'Wolf' we will be eaten by wolves if we do not cooperate and tell the truth, because wolves do cooperate and tell the truth, and that makes them stronger than they are as individuals. — unenlightened
You cannot tell the truth yourself, but recite this trope about Russians on autopilot. — unenlightened
This assumes that karma controls the world. I'd love to think that North Korea will fall due to the falsehoods and propaganda it imposes on its citizens. — Hanover
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcidAs of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) in the UK.
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.