I hoped you wouldn't ask that one :confused:
— bongo fury
Why? Is it a stupid or difficult question? — Harry Hindu
Would you say that dreams have images? — Harry Hindu
If you had a dream about a brain, could you draw a picture of it after you wake up? — Harry Hindu
But the external image itself is an object (a picture, polaroid, drawing, etc.) that represents other objects. — Harry Hindu
How did your brain learn to represent things if it isn't something that it already does? — Harry Hindu
Would you say that a computer that performs facial recognition has an image in its working memory that it measures and compares to the measurements of other images in it's long-term memory? — Harry Hindu
Think about your view of the world. — Harry Hindu
You're mis-representing my position. Please quote the post where I said brains contain images. I believe that I said that minds contain images of brains, and that brains are not what is out there, but other minds are what is out there and brains, and their neural firings, are how we model other minds. Mental objects are the mental process of modeling other processes. So, it appears that I am keener (less naive) than your naive realism."Have"? They relate to them, sure. I am keener than you (apparently) to avoid implying that a dreaming brain literally contains them. Especially if they have to be "mental". — bongo fury
I hoped you wouldn't ask that one :confused:
— bongo fury
Why? Is it a stupid or difficult question?
— Harry Hindu
Haha, difficult. Working on it. :nerd: — bongo fury
:grin:Sure. (Although I'd want to gloss "of it" as, e.g., "interpreting it" rather than "copying it" or other notions suggesting the dream was composed of images.) — bongo fury
This is very strange. How is it that the unicorn that I draw will look similar to your drawing of a unicorn? Where are we getting our information to draw a unicorn, and what form does that information take?Yep. (Although of course many don't, e.g. pictures of unicorns, and abstract expressionist pictures.) — bongo fury
What form do words take? Are they not an image of a scribble on the screen, or sounds that you hear? In thinking in words, are you not thinking in sounds or scribbles? Wouldn't these be the form your thoughts take? Sure, words are just other types of images that our thoughts take.Not clear what you consider the brain to have learnt, here... to participate in a language game of pointing actual words and pictures at things (my preference), or to host mental words and pictures that point at things? — bongo fury
No. As the form the information about the world relative to your eyes takes.Think about your view of the world.
— Harry Hindu
As an image, to be stored and retrieved? — bongo fury
Think about your view of the world.
— Harry Hindu
As an image, to be stored and retrieved?
— bongo fury
No. As the form the information about the world relative to your eyes takes. — Harry Hindu
I'm asking you what scribble you are using to refer to the form the information about the world relative to your eyes takes. — Harry Hindu
What is a view? — Harry Hindu
What is looking at this screen like for you? — Harry Hindu
No, I mean he view from your head. Would you agree that the information in your "brain" includes objects' location relative to your brain, and not your window? Is it informative to know about the location of objects relative to your body or your window?Well, the view from my window could (in one sense) mean my back garden, or it could mean an image of said garden created at said window. A photo, for example. Do you mean something else? — bongo fury
Pleasant and informative could apply to a mind with images. I need an description that couldn't be interpreted to apply minds with images, because you say those things don't happen. What is discerning patterns in the images and other objects around you like?Pleasant and informative. Good practice at discerning patterns in the images and other objects around me. And for you? — bongo fury
Would you agree that the information in your "brain" includes objects' location relative to your brain, — Harry Hindu
Pleasant and informative could apply to a mind with images. — Harry Hindu
I need a description that couldn't be interpreted to apply to minds with images, because you say those things don't happen. What is discerning patterns in the images and other objects around you like? — Harry Hindu
"The information in your brain", though... are we back to internal images, data, words, symbols? I'm not keen to agree to any assertions about what such alleged internal entities include and refer to: even though I can see how natural these assertions will seem to those who are comfortable with modelling the brain as a pre-neural-network symbolic computer. — bongo fury
Is your sensitivity the same as the specific location, or is it about the specific location? It seems like you are confusing your sensitivity (the symbol) with the location (the symbolized). How is the sensitivity different than the specific location? How is it similar or related?Obviously my skills in navigating myself require somehow being sensitive to what in fact are specific locations etc. I don't see that a theory of internal representations is required to explain the sensitivity. — bongo fury
Sounds like symbolism to me. Cue is just another name for symbol/signal. Is the cue the same thing as the state of the environment, or are they different things? Are you a solipsist?The swallow may fly south with the sun, not necessarily by consulting internal symbolic maps but, more likely, by inheriting and/or learning appropriate responses to all manner of environmental cues. — bongo fury
Do you mean, what do I find when I try to examine and describe my thoughts and perceptions? As I was saying, although I'm as susceptible as anyone to conventional habits of interpretation which do tempt me into assuming ghostly entities inside me, I suspect that a more realistic account of the sense of / illusion of consciousness will probably focus on the effect of thinking in (as in, preparing to select or manipulate) symbols. — bongo fury
But you said that the illusion of consciousness doesn't happen. Is an illusion something that happens? If it doesn't then what are you talking about when you talk about "habits of interpretation" and "thinking in symbols"?But the nerve firings actually happen. Your inner film show doesn't. That's what I'm saying, anyway. — bongo fury
I find it interesting that you think that information only comes in the form of images, data, words, and symbols. — Harry Hindu
What about neural firings? Is that information in the brain? — Harry Hindu
If so, then information about what? — Harry Hindu
Can neural firings be about the location of an apple relative to your body? — Harry Hindu
How? — Harry Hindu
It seems like you are confusing your sensitivity (the symbol) with the location (the symbolized). — Harry Hindu
Sounds like symbolism to me. Cue is just another name for symbol/signal. — Harry Hindu
Is the cue the same thing as the state of the environment, or are they different things? — Harry Hindu
Are you a solipsist? — Harry Hindu
But you said that the illusion of consciousness doesn't happen. Is an illusion something that happens? — Harry Hindu
I agree that the fact that we think that, or entertain the illusion that, we have mental images does deserve explanation, yes. Hence my attempt at that. On the other hand, I can't agree that it's a fact that we have mental illusions in the form of mental images. — bongo fury
what are you talking about when you talk about "habits of interpretation" and "thinking in symbols"? — Harry Hindu
thinking in (as in, preparing to select or manipulate) symbols. — bongo fury
What is a mirage? How do you explain an illusion of a mirage within the illusion of consciousness using neural firings? — Harry Hindu
What are dreams? — Harry Hindu
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