My hand never has much of worth to say.

One should look out for those hands that wave, or for sleight of hand.

One of the running themes in this thread is the jealousy of the pro-EU leftists . There is a real hatred for those that earn or have a lot of wealth...they very easily forget that many of the leading EUers are extremely rich too. So it's ok to attack Mogg, but no negative words about Blair, it would be ok to attack Dyson but not Gates...it's ok to bleat on about workers rights but sweep under that rug the fact that many thousands who work for the EU earn more than the "toff Tory scum" Johnson.

It's almost as if the fans of a vast bureaucracy of very well paid officials and its billionaire supporters are being a bit two-faced ...

Here's an article from a few months back from one of the EU's biggest billionaire fans...he's worried about its future...good news!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/12/eu-soviet-union-european-elections-george-soros

Nice article and so the solution is a great big up yours. Nice.

No one ever said it was going to be easy to unify Europe, so they can work together. No one said it would be easy to leave the EU did they. Oh wait a minute, the Brexiters did, we would have the exact same benefits, we would have the sunlit uplands of free trade with the world, we would have our cake and eat it etc etc.

We would train our own to do the jobs of the EU workers after they have left, dream on.

I know we can get all those workers who are going to lose their jobs juring the lockdown to pick cabbages and cauliflowers 12 hours a day, or wipe arses. Good honest graft. Just what this country needs.

At least you are tacitly admitting that there are billionaires on your side...not very nice ones at that.

It would have been a piece of piss to leave the EU...apart from the fact that our political/media class did all in their power to block it..those that blocked it are anti-democratic scum. That's another down-tick for the EU...anti-democrats love it.

Wanting to use eastern Europeans as cheap slave labour isn't a nice trait mate.

The modern face of the left...

At least you are tacitly admitting that there are billionaires on your side...not very nice ones at that. — Chester

There are billionaires on both sides. Screw Blair and Bojo. The UK is not going to get a better deal with the EU than the one it had while in it. The Tory government is putting in huge amounts of effort to maintain the benefits of international trade and finance flows to their moneyed interests. If you think them supporting Brexit makes them amazingly democratic, look at them bailing out all these companies that do fuck all for the people of Britain in response to the pandemic; no vote, no accountability, another huge wealth transfer. Them and their friends on the liberal left and populist right are doing absolutely fine.

There are billionaires on both sides. — fdrake

Politics is like chess; it's the pawns that generally get sacrificed, and the players move on to the next game even if they lose.

Has something been blocked? I noticed that the Spartans tried to block something.

I saw Steve Baker, a spartan, on the box today desperate to get us out of lockdown. All his Singapore on Thames dreams in tatters.

I wonder why we were enlisting slaves to do our nursing, and countless low paid frontline jobs. It must be globalisation undercutting our industries that did it.

Beware handwaving ;)

There is this obsession with pro-EU'ers with us needing to get a deal...we don't need one. Our biggest single trading partner is the US and we actually have a trade surplus with them...but no trade deal. I'd like us to increase our trade with the US and level it out more (so import more from them) in order to replace trade with the EU .Much of what we import from the EU can be sourced elsewhere , if they want to play hardball with us they are going to lose their Treasure Island.

The extent of this lockdown is an example of the risk averse, feminised society that we have become. The whole point of the lockdown was not to overwhelm the nhs, it isn't overwhelmed so time to loosen up restrictions ...like your mates the Swedes.

I am not a massive Tory fan , they are just the best of what's available. I don't trust any politician. As an example , all this talk about having a tracer app is pathetic, it's a sign that these people are out of touch with reality...just not as out of touch as the labour/limp dick clowns.

The exports to the EU are almost 2.5 times than to the US. A country by country comparison doesn't make sense. Whether a trade deficit is good or bad is not something economists agree on so your comment is baseless. Empirical research in the matter show that countries with large capital inflows don't need to worry about it (like the US and UK). See for some preliminary info: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/051515/pros-cons-trade-deficit.asp

So sure, you don't need a trade deal, but why make Brexit cost more than necessary?

I was definitely waving my hands.

I am not a massive Tory fan , they are just the best of what's available.

Nice, now these clowns are presiding over the highest death count in Europe and we're not finished yet, as the death toll in carehomes is still increasing.

Your careless support for these clowns is costing people's lives.

When people talk about UK trade they like to say that EU trade is greater than US trade with the UK. That is true to a degree but we have a greater trade surplus with the US...but more importantly it totally ignores the fact that the UK does and can trade with the rest of the world.

A few facts...

The UK has more trade with China than Spain...and in both cases the trade involves twice as much coming to the UK than going out.

The UK sells twice as much to the US as we do to Germany.

We trade more with Japan than we do with Sweden.

We have more trade with Hong Kong than we do with Poland.

We have more trade , and sell more to, South Korea than we do with Denmark.

Sweden and Ireland are the only EU countries that we have a trade surplus with.

We have more trade with Taiwan than Romania.

More trade with Thailand than Greece.

More trade with Russian than the Czech republic.

In reality the UK trades more with the rest of the world than we do with the EU...and on top of that there is far more potential for growth.

As an aside , I was in Berlin last year and happened to walk into a very large department store. I went to the huge cheese counter, hundreds of cheeses from around the world...just one little piece of Stilton in the whole stinking pile. It said a lot to me about how much Europeans like us and our culture...just one little piece of evidence.

Total BS, some countries are not as aggressive in their counting methods...do you remember the Germans counting methods with their diesel emissions? You can't trust these numbers...if anything the UK government is deliberately counting people dying with rather than because of. I heard on the radio the other day that a chap involved in a serious car accident , in a critical condition , died of his injuries...but he happened to have the virus so his was a covid 19 death.

I think it is despicable that people like you seek to blame Western governments for a Chinese crime ...it says a lot about your ilk.

just one little piece of evidence. — Chester

Why buck the trend now, you'd been going so well without any whatsoever!

Another EU worshipper I take it lol.

Where have I lied? Point my lies out to me or shut the fuck up.

The forum isn't Twitter, repeatedly spamming the thread with decontextualised single line posts gets them deleted.

Where have I lied? Point my lies out to me or shut the fuck up. — Chester

I'm not going to repeat all the work @fdrake and @Benkei have put in trying to help you understand the economics. I will, however link you their posts to help.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/407677

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/407923

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/407955

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/407964

But just to help you with the last one.

In reality the UK trades more with the rest of the world than we do with the EU — Chester

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

UK imports
EU 318 billion
Rest of the world 243 billion

UK exports
EU 235 billion
Rest of the world 284 billion

So net trade, we do trade 26 billion more with the EU than the rest of the world.

According to this we have a trade surplus with the rest of the world and about £28 billion more over all trade ...so don't intimate that I'm a liar.

A few facts... — Chester

Your facts are not contrary to my facts. So what's your point? Is the EU an important trading partner to the UK or not? The rest of the world is 6.75 billion people and the EU just 750 million. Those 750 make up about 50% of UK trade. Not relevant?

Does FDI make trade deficits irrelevant or not? Has FDI fallen sharply thanks to Brexit or not? Do you understand the effect of that? If so, what does that mean for the UK?

According to this we have a trade surplus with the rest of the world and about £28 billion more over all trade ...so don't intimate that I'm a liar. — Chester

The 2017 figures (your Wikipedia source) have not yet been summarised by the ONS and so may require interpretation. If you prefer up-to-date figures over analysed ones, then the figures for 2018 show a 37,000 total trade in favour of the EU. No-one is calling you a liar (as in knowingly propagating things which aren't true). People are - quite patiently and understandingly, given your provocation - pointing out where you are in error, or where you could be better informed.

Now can you explain why we're comparing the EU to the 'rest of the world'. We don't make trade deals with 'the rest of the world'. I'm sure if we compared EU trade to trade with Alabama, there'd be a substantial imbalance too. So what's this supposed to show with regards to the economics of brexit?

says a lot about your ilk.

But I am of your ilk remember, I'm working class from up north.

The EU is a good trading partner to a point...obviously they sell us a lot more than we sell them and there was not an open market for UK services in Europe. Given that we are a service driven economy that's not a great deal for us ...but a great one for the likes of German car manufacturers. It was a badly balanced deal. Also , as I've shown, it looks like Germany is in for a bad time with its banking sector in a mess and its manufacturing sector about to get blown to bits by this virus...the UK on the other hand isn't as dependent on exports as Germany...last time I looked exports made up about 15% of our economy, for Germany it was about 60%. If Germany has an economic crash it's hard to see how the EU will be financed.

Foreign investment in this country is a double edged sword. The Chinese have bought vast tracts of London real estate...not so great I'd argue...but I'm not against foreign companies creating jobs by "saving" our manufacturing here provided they don't just do it as a cover to "steal" our ideas or to asset strip.

It will be far easier for us to form trade deals with smaller nations than it will be to get a sensible one with an empire that is more concerned with preserving itself as a post-democratic political entity than the well being of its citizens.

I'm not from up north...nor am I a socialist. Me and you couldn't be more different in our outlooks. My whole life has been one of physical labour (apart from now lol) , I've probably shifted thousands of tons with my body, that has helped keep me in touch with reality...I doubt if you have done much more than "push a pen"... but, tbh, I don't care.

We have more trade with Taiwan than Romania. — Chester

This made me laugh a little because Romania doesn't have a single ocean port.