I don't know. Is your goal to feel better about yourself, or to obtain knowledge?Don't take what appeals to me or anyone for that matter as bearing any significance other than indicating my (our) failure to use logic in the proper way. People like us are then naturally drawn to what is presented to the public as an alternative - mystical insight. We feel better about ourselves when we see that what we're not good at is claimed not to matter. However, this is all a smoke and mirrors: there is no alternative route to knowledge other than by the application of rigorous rules of thinking - logic.
By the way, are we talking about the same thing? — TheMadFool
How can you say that you understand it if it can't be worded, unless the problem is that you don't have the vocabulary for wording it. Sometimes new ideas require new words, but words that still embody the idea.Have you ever "understood" anything that simply can't be worded? — TheMadFool
I practice the ability to think on other ways than those instilled by conditioning along with alternative kinds of knowing.The above points might have just touched on something that many people have issues with. That is the idea of ‘thinking’ that isn’t verbal. Some people find that extremely hard - I guess they lack the ability to purposefully visualize in high resolution.
I wonder what you mean by this, particularly after relating experiences that you still pursue the meaning of. — praxis
Yes, unique perspectives I expect. Perhaps this is why it is best to spend time in person with the person in question. For me the best understanding of the mystical experience of someone else was achieved by spending a few weeks together with another aspirant.I meant more in lines of trying to appreciate/consider individual perspectives and the general narrative function embedded in communication.
How can you say that you understand it if it can't be worded, unless the problem is that you don't have the vocabulary for wording it. Sometimes new ideas require new words, but words that still embody the idea. — Harry Hindu
I don't know. Is your goal to feel better about yourself, or to obtain knowledge?
Ideas that make one feel better about themselves at the expense of obtaining knowledge are generally referred to as delusions (delusions of grandeur). — Harry Hindu
Well, if understanding represents something in addition to what is explicitly presented in a proposition, then by definition it is "beyond words." So perhaps all understanding has this dimension; and it is just more evident in some types of claims than others. I am leaning in the direction of hermeneutics now. — Pantagruel
Yes I agree with this approach, for me treading the path of mystical enquiry is rather like how we deal with ordinary life, a process of having experiences, living mentally and emotionally with them, analysing them where they are of interest, or problematic, seeking more where of interest, less where problematic issues are identified. But differing from normal life where more disciplined, or structured practices are undertaken, for example meditation, or contemplation of an esoteric text. Such alternative processes can give a different take on experience, so that one can cross reference in the spirit of, or part of a structured attempt to break out of previous conditioning.
An intuition or experience can give us a starting point from which to investigate further, but it should always hold up to the scrutiny of logic and reason, or we risk ending up with delusion.
In the context of my personal experiences, I can use logic and reason to discern the genuineness of my experiences. If I conclude that my experiences were likely genuine, I can use logic and reason to try and filter understanding out of these experiences.
Mysticism to some extent involves the concept of freeing oneself from the constraints of the mundane (viz the whole monastic tradition is a separation from the worldly).
Comparably, scientific theories or worldviews can sometimes become trapped in dead ends, which require a radical rethinking of core beliefs (paradigm shifts). Likewise individuals can become trapped in self-reinforcing frameworks of prejudiced beliefs.
So if mysticism aims explicitly at deconstructing mundane reality in order to work towards actualizing a more idealized version (as in the example of a monastic community) then I would say it absolutely does offer the possibility of something new, and potentially meaningful. Certainly at the very least as an exercise in self-discipline or introspective awareness.
If it can't be expressed (in words), it can't be understood. — TheMadFool
Quite, confirmation, or reaching a perceived goal is a side issue. But rather a growth, or progression along a path is what is important, rather like the growing of an oak tree. The acorn cannot jump from acorn to mature tree in one step without growing through all the millions of smal steps in between.The secret for me is I always maintain a hypothetical or experimental attitude. I'm not looking for any kind of particular confirmation (which is where I think the search degenerates into something contrived). I am just....continuously gathering information.
Do you believe that when Pythagoras first grasped the relationship between the squares on the sides of a right-angled triangle it popped into his head in propositional form?
It seems pretty clear to me that there is an incipient event of understanding which is pre-verbal and intuitive. Any kind of reasoning about the nature of learning and theorization would never get started if the mind were not capable of intuitively grasping something novel. You would be in an infinite circularity of already known propositions. — Pantagruel
As I see it there are two kinds of insight then. One kind, something Pythagoras might've experienced, can be expressed in words - clear propositions - and the other kind, the mystical variety, that simply defies any attempt to word them. — TheMadFool
The methods of mysticism are new but they lack credibility unless you want to take the mystics' words on it. — TheMadFool
I would call a method credible when it is known to produce desired results. — TheMadFool
Nice summary, do you study, or practice? — Punshhh
Stab a baby in the leg with a knife and see if it ‘understands’ pain. According to what you said I guess not because it can’t articulate it with words. — I like sushi
Others however, will learn to recognize their own mystical experience, and seek to better understand it. This will drive them toward associating with people who have the same object, where they can discuss and learn about mystical things. — Metaphysician Undercover
Then why are you even here trying to put it into words? Why are you even trying to express something that you say is inexpressible?Mysticism, to my knowledge, is always about the ineffable, no? If mystical knowledge could be put into words then, that would be a contradiction - amounting to saying I can express the inexpressible. — TheMadFool
I don't see how non-linear thinking would be easier than linear thinking. If you want to abandon logic, then you are abandoning coherency. Just go back and read the above. It is incoherent - contradictory - to claim that mysticism is inexpressible while at the same time trying to express it. If that is truth to you, then we might as well part ways.I wish you'd not judge people like me so harshly. We don't have delusions, especially of the grandiose kind. We simply find linear thinking difficult. Thus we look for alternatives. Too, it's possible that some knowledge can't be gained by the mere application of logic to certain sets of assumptions. — TheMadFool
Then why are you even here trying to put it into words? Why are you even trying to express something that you say is inexpressible? — Harry Hindu
I don't see how non-linear thinking would be easier than linear thinking. If you want to abandon logic, then you are abandoning coherency. — Harry Hindu
The problem is that MadFool was talking about mysticism, not his opinion of it. Maybe people are confusing the two, or are they the same thing - is mysticism a kind of opinion - if so, then an opinion about what? If mysticism is ineffable regardless of one's opinion, then what is the purpose of even talking about your opinion of it? If mysticism isn't necessarily ineffable, but can be also be expressible, then we are talking past each other, and not sharing opinions about the same thing.Because expressing an opinion about mysticism was the subject of the thread. — Pantagruel
Logic reduces to reasons. If you don't have reasons, or your reasons don't support the conclusion (as in a contradiction), then you simply aren't being logical.Likewise, reason does not reduce to logic, but is a communicative process in which defensible hypotheses are supported by reasons which are not reducible to material facts, but may constitute 'plausible narratives' (depending on the subject matter, as in this case). — Pantagruel
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