:lol:

I don't "put tiles on a roof". — Chester

Then what do people pay you for. Jesus. Can't even do your job and people pay you.

Population decrease now will cause a population resurgence later when people begin to like living here again. — Chester

Literally "close your eyes and think of England" as a population growth strategy.

The cost of living is not on the rise with all goods and services...for instance most people can afford electrical appliances that older generations could only dream of, food's got cheaper in real terms cars are cheaper in real terms . One of the biggest cost growths has been in housing, and guess what causes the cost of housing to go up? Increased population and smaller family groups. — Chester

(from London School of Economics). Real wages adjusted by a consumer price index that does not include rent or mortgage repayments. This is a measure of how easy it is to buy groceries if that's all you bought. The long term story looks like: stuff gets easier because of imports, then the Great Recession happens, and your wage doesn't buy groceries as well.

That's not a complete picture though, as it doesn't include rents and mortgages (or transport costs). The majority of people are switching to private sector rented housing. Here's how the median monthly price of rented housing goes: from Shelter for England.



A secular decline in the grocery purchasing power of wages (since 2011) occurs at the same time as an aggregate 20% hike in median rents. These are median rents, the above are mean wages; the mean is effected more by the highly skewed to the top income distribution. You have a similar story for trying to get a sensible house on a lower salary (insofar as using house price ratio-ed to earnings is a good indicator for this):



Used to be a cheap house price is about 4 times a yearly salary. Now it flatlined at 7 despite all the other crap going on. (For lower wages and lower housed prices). So basically; better have had a mortgage before all this recession shenanigans started otherwise you're fucked. I'm guessing you were in that position, maybe you even owned your house, and that's why you're not particularly sensitive to how the ground's shifting under your feet. For you, it literally isn't.

Except all those bloody immigrants 'eh, it's all them. Too many of 'em. :roll:

Unless you're entertaining coffee beans there's no reason to grind a corpse.

My hobby: giving sermons in graveyards.

There are "facts" and there are facts. The LSE is a leftist organisation that generates "facts" that back up its faulty political prejudices .I can not accept anything they generate as being truthful.

You leftists love "facts"...you generate them in the same way that horses generate manure.

Three things,

1) It seems you can't imagine roofs other than tiled roofs.

2) Linking to an openly leftist organisation (LSE) as proof of how terrible the Tories are isn't in the slightest bit scientific or reasonable.

3) Poor people in the UK don't appear to be starving , in fact many of them look like they're eating like pigs.

Nice posts, I'm not surprised Chester has reacted this way. The populists have to distance their supporters from any real data because it can contradict their message. In order to do this they foster a them and us rift between them and the establishment. Thus any specialist analysis of data is establishment propaganda, all experts are in on it. The only true and reliable source of information is through the populist channels of right wing rags and social media. They perceive a threat from nearly everyone, except people like them who think like them. The well off poor unite!

Interestingly before Corona the government rejected experts because it suited their agenda to win an election, which required aligning with the populists. Now we have Corona they rely on the specialists again, indeed they follow the advice from the experts. Presumably it is advantageous to have the capability to put the blame on the specialists later on when it all goes wrong.

It was a quier state of affairs where privelidged establishment Tory toffs where in alignment with working class anti establishment anti truth populists. The Tory's played them for fools for their own agendas.

Chester probably works on the roofs of those massive distribution warehouses where people work on minimum wages, on zero hour contracts.

Now we have Corona they rely on the specialists again, indeed they follow the advice from the experts. — Punshhh

Really, though?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/27/uk-to-name-scientific-advisers-on-emergency-coronavirus-group-sage

Just because the government happen to be carrying out the very broad recommendation (to have some kind of lockdown), I wouldn't confuse that in any way for a shift in emphasis to a reliance on experts. Experts vary a lot (even those within SAGE) on the details and Cummings will, without doubt, be steering the whole thing in favour of his preferred option - his presence in a expert advisory panel is disgraceful.

Yes, the stark nature of the crisis has set more constrained parameters than otherwise, but I think we can be sure that within those parameters, it's business as usual - select the scientist telling you what you want to hear, dismiss the rest.

Yes I know, we do need to see this through a Vote Leave prism ( Vote Leave is now in government, Cummings, Johnson, Gove and their entourage). They are saying we rely on the experts, but what the experts tell them then goes through the prism of a spin group headed by Cummings. It must be in their interest to portray themselves as following closely the advice. Yesterday Patrick Vallance, one of the experts said that they, the experts, give the government a range of scenarios and strategies, for them to consider. Also he said interestingly that he thought that the pull back from testing at the point of lockdown around 23rd of March was a mistake. The reason given at the time was that it was now pointless to test as the virus was spreading more widely in the community and the focus now was to flatten the curve by social distancing. They still had the herd immunity strategy ringing in their ears as well at that time.

So Cummings and Co are spinning the advice for their own purposes, whatever those are.

You leftists love "facts"...you generate them in the same way that horses generate manure. — Chester

Linking to an openly leftist organisation (LSE) as proof of how terrible the Tories are isn't in the slightest bit scientific or reasonable. — Chester

Poor people in the UK don't appear to be starving , in fact many of them look like they're eating like pigs. — Chester

I'm done now. You are impossible.

I'm done now. You are impossible.

It's that old chestnut fake news. Anything said by the other side, in this case lefty's, remoaners, establishment figures, their rags, or reports. It's all fake news. Fact has become fake.

We, the wealthy (and well fed) poor, unite! Against those charlatans, betrayers of our country, who want to give it all away to those faceless European bureaucrats. The're all fake the lot of them, fake news.

and there was not an open market for UK services in Europe. — Chester

In what way?

And even if it were true, would that be more or less open then with other countries in the world?

And even if that were worse than with other countries in the world, does it matter if the rules and regulations were the same for everyone in the EU? E.g. if anything, wasn't there at least a level playing field? And will a no deal Brexit improve or worsen the access for service companies in the EU?

Basically on paper there is a single market for services within the EU, however each country has different rules and regulations concerning services...for instance different countries recognise different qualifications. So in effect there is only a partial free market within the EU which means that countries like the UK which are overwhelmingly service industry economies do not fare as well as countries like Germany which primarily trade in manufactured goods.

A no deal Brexit may well negatively effect our trade with the EU, but it will also negatively effect EU trade with us. It's in both parties interests to come up with a sensible deal ...but I'd take no deal, I don't like the idea of the EU blackmailing us and in any case I think we can make up for any losses by trading more with the rest of the world. 80% of the world is not the EU after all.

The EU really is constructed for the benefit of Germany...but once the effects of this virus have played out that may well change .I really do think the EU is on borrowed time, this virus may well be the bail of straw that breaks the camel's back...but we shall see.

You really should educate yourself about these prejudices you hold against the EU. Passporting has enabled easy low regulation services access across Europe for UK service providers.
We will of course lose it entirely when we leave and will find it almost impossible to trade in services as a third country across the EU. We will also lose all the agreements we benefitted from around the world via the EU trade deals. So will have to start from scratch with every country in the world in trying to come to some accommodation for services access. All of which will take many years as it's far more complex to agree than trade in goods. In the meantime UK financial services will disappear abroad, or die out.

Are you aware what will happen every time our negotiators go to a country to start negotiating? The first thing they will say is show me the agreements and trade deals you have with the EU and then we can talk. So no deal means no deals anywhere until we crawl back to the EU and accept whatever they decide to offer us.

Double whammy, the EU won't agree to a quick simplified trade deal which Johnson is hoping for and the best that's possible by 31st December. Because the UK intends to move further away in terms of agreements, alignments etc over time and won't agree to anything which prevents this moving away to happen, making a no deal more or less inevitable.

Also these other countries will turn to the negotiators and say look at the divisive and untrustworthy way you have gone about leaving the EU. Do you think we are going to trust you with a favourable deal and trust you to stand by your word when you insult the EU from day to day regarding things you signed up to in the withdrawal agreement, which you are now ripping up? You guys want to have your cake and eat it, you can have a basic trade access until we can trust you again.

Do some reading up on what you denigrate for once.
https://www.bba.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/webversion-BQB-3-1.pdf

I just thought I would mention that if we are subjected to a no trade deal scenario on the back of the Covid economic hit. Our economy will be a basket case because there will be no way to sustain the inflated house prices upon which most of our wealth depends. If house prices crash then millions of just about managing mortgage holders will find themselves in serious negative equity. That will just be one of the dominoes which will fall and those folk in negative equity will find it increasingly impossible to service those mortgages. There will be no way to hold interest rates down. So the repayments will sky rocket. Within a couple of years we will be as broken as Greece was at the height of the Grexit crisis. But we won't have the EU to bail us out. England will be finished, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will leave the UK and rejoin the EU.

We're back to Boris Isles.

Ohh. Art. That's rather cool.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will leave the UK and rejoin the EU. — Punshhh

I doubt this. This is not an ideal world for stragglers. Unless you're Switzerland.

but I'd take no deal, I don't like the idea of the EU blackmailing us and in any case I think we can make up for any losses by trading more with the rest of the world. 80% of the world is not the EU after all. — Chester

On what time scale? Is the rest of the world spontaneously going to want UK goods if the UK is out of the EU? Unlikely no?

Probably that trade will first decline because a lot of the trade deals you have via the EU will no longer be valid, making English good more expensive. So exporters are going to have to take a haircut on their profits to maintain sales, if possible. Even if all things remained the same: where's the increased demand for UK goods going to come from?

Average time for negotiating comprehensive trade deals is 15 years by the way. And the UK is not going to be the first in line with many players because there are bigger trade blocs out there so replacing on the existing trade deals the UK has via the EU will take probably 30 years, from a position with far less bargaining power because the UK market is much smaller than the EU's.

I also don't recognise EU blackmail for the country that had by far the most exemptions to various rules and contributions than any other country in the EU and a financial services industry that has done very well, in large part thanks to freedom of capital and services within the EU. When did the EU blackmail the UK?

Well, Sturgeon has been demanding an indyref2. And I do see a unification of Ireland eventually. I think those two could happen, especially considering the voting with regards to Brexit there. I'd say more likely than not (more than 50%).

I doubt this. This is not an ideal world for stragglers. Unless you're Switzerland.

This was on the assumption that the UK would leave with no trade deal in place on 31st December and all the attendant chaos which would come from that. If that happens they will leave trust me, and becoming small states in the EU would be better than the alternative (staying in the UK)

I have a feeling that many Europeans are wilfully blind to the internal fault lines within the EU. Europeans like to be led , it's in their nature, the British however are naturally suspicious and doubtful of politicians ...we tend to think they couldn't organise a fuck in a whorehouse , so why would we want more of them, but hey-ho.

Even assuming there are going to be costs to the UK economy in relation to not getting a deal with the EU I'd be ok with that because I put national independence above pure financial gain...a financial gain that has costs of its own which I have pointed out.

I linked to a post earlier that showed Germany is already breaking EU rules to protect its manufacturing base...Italy and Spain can't afford to do that so guess who will be waiting in the wings to snap up Spanish and Italian companies... German companies. You Europeans never learn whereas the UK, especially England, is usually ahead of the game.

Just out of interest, are you Dutch? If so why do you care if the UK leaves?

There's a saying in England that if the Scots want independence let the English have a vote too...they'd be guaranteed independence.

SAGE? I bet they came up with the acronym before they came up with the name. Such is the hubris of experts.

Quite and the body which decides which drugs are procured for the NHS and which are to expensive, meaning many people don't get the treatment they could have is called NICE.

Nice.

Completely agree.

Have you done your reading yet?

Too busy mate...taking the dogs for a walk.:)

You Europeans never learn whereas the UK, especially England, is usually ahead of the game. — Chester

Which is it? Either we were so smart we managed to wrangle and cheat the English for decades as you've asserted or we're dim? We can't be both.

Just out of interest, are you Dutch? If so why do you care if the UK leaves? — Chester

I'm Dutch and I've worked in the financial industry about half of my professional life. What do I care? I have friends in the UK and I liked how easy it was to visit them. Or working for UK companies being easy. From a regulatory perspective the BoE and FCA had a much richer history and experience that is now lost, which will definitely make financial regulations in the EU worse. The Dutch and UK pension schemes are similar so they were an important partner in certain negotiations. The UK is an important trading partner as well.

Europeans like to be led , it's in their nature, the British however are naturally suspicious and doubtful of politicians ...we tend to think they couldn't organise a fuck in a whorehouse , so why would we want more of them, but hey-ho. — Chester

This is just fairy tales. It's much more likely that the consensus building with a multi-party system leads to decisions a larger majority actually likes than the winner takes all system you have in the UK. Brexit had a statistically irrelevant majority. So about 50% isn't happy about Brexit at all. So yeah, I get it that if that happens regularly half of the time you think you're not getting what you want and therefore politicians stuck.

Even more, we actually had real revolutions in Europe resulting in more meaningful democracies where the UK was stuck with nobs and aristocracy continuing to lord it over the rest (how much land do they own again?). So yeah, those English are really ahead of the curve with a pseudo-feudal system.

taly and Spain can't afford to do that so guess who will be waiting in the wings to snap up Spanish and Italian companies... German companies — Chester

Highly unlikely. You don't seem to understand that German manufacturing base is one of SME's, often family owned. The large all-consuming corporations are an anglo-saxon thing which has found willing copycats in mainly Asian countries. Europe has tended to answer, overall, with more specialised or bespoke production and service economies.

Which is why, if it hasn't been done before, hire a Dutch company.

The British people were misled when they voted to join the EEC, had they known that it was really an exercise in empire building they would never have voted to join. We are ahead of the game because we can see the direction of travel for the EU...an overbearing state apparatus that seeks ever greater control over the populace... and so we have voted to leave.

I know 2 people who work at a very high level in financial services. One of them voted for Brexit and the other for remain. The one who voted remain voted remain because of the fear of economic cost not love for the EU. Both of them could get work anywhere in the world without restriction, they do not need the EU for work. You will have no problems visiting or working in the UK in the future.

I used to like the idea of proportional representation but I have come to the conclusion that it would lead to unending compromise...it hasn't exactly made the EU positive in the eyes of many of its citizens has it? Funnily enough it led to a huge influx to the EU of Brexiteer politicians ...if other countries had done the same and sent Euro sceptic politicians the whole edifice would have possibly come to a standstill .First past the post means that British citizens get to see who exactly to blame and credit .The idea that they "lord it over " us is a joke ...the British are the most politician sceptic people in Europe , we think most of them are cunts...I hate my local Tory MP even though I voted for her!

Some German SME's...Volkswagen, Siemens, BASF, Bayer...plenty of buying power there. What do you think about the Germans flouting EU regulations and bailing out their manufacturing sector whilst the rest of the EU can't afford to?

To help pin down the lie that most people who voted Brexit were uneducated oafs I thought I would link to this poll that was taken shortly after the referendum. One of the big lies is founded on the fact that older people tended to vote for Brexit and older people tended not to go to university...when I was a teenager in the 80's only 5% went to uni, now half the population goes...probably why standards have dropped and why the students are far easier to mislead lol.

If you're into numbers this makes interesting reading, it shows how the narrative has been hijacked.

http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/07/gary-bennett-stop-blaming-the-old-and-the-ignorant-for-brexit-the-statistics-just-dont-support-these-myths.html