Why the hell are you complaining about the LSE's biasedness when you're citing "conservativehome.com" as a source

That's not the original source of the poll.

The British people were misled when they voted to join the EEC, had they known that it was really an exercise in empire building they would never have voted to join. We are ahead of the game because we can see the direction of travel for the EU...an overbearing state apparatus that seeks ever greater control over the populace... and so we have voted to leave. — Chester

Who's "we"? Only half did of those who voted. Statistically you cannot even conclude there was a majority. See: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://arxiv.org/pdf/1709.03387&ved=2ahUKEwjzk-r_9qPpAhVJzqQKHXTxBHAQFjAAegQIAhAC&usg=AOvVaw2rWPxFyt4m9J4I_5mnXiCj

Second, when you voted for it in the past, if you were lied to, you were lied to by your own politicians which is not the fault is the EU.

I know 2 people who work at a very high level in financial services. One of them voted for Brexit and the other for remain. The one who voted remain voted remain because of the fear of economic cost not love for the EU. Both of them could get work anywhere in the world without restriction, they do not need the EU for work. You will have no problems visiting or working in the UK in the future. — Chester

So what? This isn't even relevant. Nobody requires anyone to love the EU to realise its benefits. I don't love my Dutch politicians either. I guess you get off on the patriotic flag waving and salutes.

Aside from the economic benefits, the original political aim was peace. Considering how many wars we've had in Europe alone, this has been fantastically successful.

I used to like the idea of proportional representation but I have come to the conclusion that it would lead to unending compromise...it hasn't exactly made the EU positive in the eyes of many of its citizens has it? — Chester

"Unending" compromise is another word for win - win negotiations. Maybe take a cue from the Harvard negotiation method. And yes, the EU has problems that it does well to address.

Some German SME's...Volkswagen, Siemens, BASF, Bayer...plenty of buying power there. What do you think about the Germans flouting EU regulations and bailing out their manufacturing sector whilst the rest of the EU can't afford to? — Chester

Of course you can name the large corporations. Maybe because they're large? It doesn't change the fact the German industry base is one of SMEs. Which you would know if you'd care to be interested in your trading partners. https://www.gtai.de/gtai-en/invest/business-location-germany/economic-profile/economic-backbone-small-and-medium-sized-enterprises-81856

What bail out? And even so, is the EU doing this? No. While we're at it: What do you think about the monetary financing by the BoE through the ways and means facility now? (it's only day to day, until you start rolling it forward on a daily basis, which makes it a long term loan worth a daily floating rate). What do you think about Spain and Italy not following the budgetting rules for years which is why they cannot afford bail outs?

Pot meet kettle.

A no deal Brexit is going to be bad and it will be blamed on Covid-19.

Also, more generally: for someone who's so wary about politicians as you say you are you certainly have swallowed the Tory story hook line and sinker. If only you'd be as critical in all areas and not only with respect to those things you happen to disagree with a priori.

i agree with Benkei

I'll give you a quote from the piece I linked to ...

"Finally, to my second myth: that the vote was too close for the mandate to be meaningful.

On a first-past-the-post basis this is a rout. Remain wins in only three of the 12 regions. This is an over-simplification, so I will refer to the excellent statistical modelling work by Chris Hanretty, Reader of Politics at the University of East Anglia who determined (based on modelling the actual local authority results down to constituency level) that if “Vote Leave” had been a political party it would probably have won 421 seats. A landslide representing 65 per cent of all seats (including Scotland) and 73 per cent of seats in England and Wales. If higher turnout in London and Scotland had tipped Remain over 50 per cent nationally, the result would have lacked a mandate in three-quarters of seats in England and Wales, leading to an historic democratic disaster."

You say that the EU has kept peace in Europe...are you suggesting Nato wasn't responsible? Are you suggesting that Japan has been at war since WW2 because it's not in the EU?

Do you now accept that large German corporations exist ? That if they are bailed out against EU rules
that they will be in a powerful position with regard to Italian or Spanish businesses?

Covid 19 makes the economic impact of Brexit negligible.

I don't trust politicians...as an example I think the Tory handling of this virus crisis has been awful. The majority of the population should no longer be locked down, so the Tories are creating terrible economic damage...but so would Labour and the Lib Dems (probably worse damage due to the innate risk-averseness of the liberal left).

I have a feeling that many Europeans are wilfully blind to the internal fault lines within the EU. Europeans like to be led , it's in their nature, the British however are naturally suspicious and doubtful of politicians ...we tend to think they couldn't organise a fuck in a whorehouse , so why would we want more of them, but hey-ho. — Chester

This is rubbish. Not only that but it weakens the case against the EU, as if the EU is only bad for the English, or that they're the only ones who can see it. The fact is that there is a lot of opposition to the EU in Europe outwith England, in e.g., France, Italy, and obviously Greece.

(Cue a rant about lazy Greeks and French or something)

Did you read the statistical research paper proving your point wrong? Or is actual research a problem for you? The referendum wasn't first past the post, so the entire premisse is irrelevant.

You say that the EU has kept peace in Europe...are you suggesting Nato wasn't responsible? Are you suggesting that Japan has been at war since WW2 because it's not in the EU? — Chester

Kept the peace? No, economic interdependence had been the greatest contributor to peace as some historic awareness would teach you. If you have more to lose from war, you won't go to war. It's as simple as that. So indeed. NATO didn't do shit with regards to peace between its members and was build to defend against another German or Soviet attack and was slowly expanded as a result from the peace existing between EU countries

Raising Japan is a logical fallacy. That's like saying vaccines don't work because someone else who didn't get one recovered from the measles. Don't be silly.

Do you now accept that large German corporations exist ? That if they are bailed out against EU rules
that they will be in a powerful position with regard to Italian or Spanish businesses? — Chester

Do you actually read what I write or are you having a monologue? I didn't say any of this and asked for which bail out you're talking about and pointed out how unlikely it will be. Stop being an ass.

Covid 19 makes the economic impact of Brexit negligible. — Chester

LOL. How much has the UK government spent on covid-19 so far? What will a no deal Brexit cost the UK? What does the word negligible mean in nobby English?

LOL. How much has the UK government spent on covid-19 so far? What will a no deal Brexit cost the UK? What does the word negligible mean in nobby English?

Yes, England is going to hell in a handcart and people who have been conned like Chester want to bring it on asap. Note he doesn't agree with the UK lockdown, that it's an over reaction. No lockdown followed by a no trade deal Brexit is hell in a hand cart for the English. Just as we fall off the economic cliff, Scotland and Northern Ireland will leave the UK, tempting the Welsh to follow. Fortunately I will be getting my Scottish passport. The nobs will be happy whatever happens, they have their offshore accounts and will turn the wreckage into the 51st of the US.

If you bothered to notice I said "many Europeans", that clearly means "not all". There is a growing EU scepticism growing throughout Europe...this virus could well take it to boiling point, we shall see.

In a two horse race it's definitely a first past the post situation.

So in your world NATO hasn't kept the peace , the Dutch have wasted their time being members? Economic interdependence can keep the peace to a degree, but we don't need the EU for that...China undermines your points...we are economically dependent on it whilst it is not an UE member and we could be headed to a cold war with it. My using Japan as an example of not needing the EU for peace still stands..it's a perfectly good example that you don't need to be in an economic cartel in order to be peaceful.

The Germans are seeking to bail out their businesses. link

No one knows if a no deal Brexit will cost the UK anything...also I very much doubt if there will be a no deal...unless the EU wants to make a political rather than economically sensible point.If it goes for the former hopefully European citizens who lose their jobs because of an obviously political decision will take actions against the EU. We shall see.

I think the lockdown was correct for the first 4 weeks ...until we knew what we were up against...after that the lockdown has treated the UK citizenry like children. The Swedes have shown the right approach, but the Swedish approach tied to the British first 4 week lockdown would have been correct imo.

Your attitude towards "nobs" is so 1970's mate , really it's daft. That's not to say a great many of them aren't total cunts but they are like the general population, good and bad. One man being rich does not necessitate anyone else being poor, often the very opposite is true.

In a two horse race it's definitely a first past the post situation. — Chester

Not at district level as you pretended. The results of the referendum as a reflection of the will of the people were inconclusive, since not everybody voted. You need a statistically relevant majority for that and 52% wasn't it. Even if you take the results at face value, I consider it problematic any way for obvious reasons: the majority is tiny and the consequences huge.

So in your world NATO hasn't kept the peace , the Dutch have wasted their time being members? — Chester

NATO didn't do shit with regards to peace between its members — Benkei

Difficulty reading again, I see.

My using Japan as an example of not needing the EU for peace still stands..it's a perfectly good example that you don't need to be in an economic cartel in order to be peaceful. — Chester

Still a fallacy.

The Germans are seeking to bail out their businesses. link — Chester

I can't open the link. This is the third time I'm trying to find more on this via Google. I either have the wrong key words or the article is sensational and hasn't been picked up anywhere else. Can you post the relevant bit? In any case, all countries are bailing out industries at the moment, so I'm not sure what's special about the Germans. There's a temporary framework : https://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/what_is_new/sa_covid19_temporary-framework.pdf

And here are all the approved state aid programs: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/what_is_new/covid_19.html

Including those evil English.

No one knows if a no deal Brexit will cost the UK anything...also I very much doubt if there will be a no deal...unless the EU wants to make a political rather than economically sensible point.If it goes for the former hopefully European citizens who lose their jobs because of an obviously political decision will take actions against the EU. We shall see. — Chester

You mean you don't know. Everybody with experience in business knows this.

The reverse of your statement is that nobody knows the effect of trade treaties and you don't need an agreement with the US or any other country in the world.

The Brexit side clearly won by well over a million votes. Bearing in mind the absolute avalanche of anti-Brexit propaganda coming from the main stream media that is an amazing result. Since the referendum the Tory vote share has gone through the roof and the party most in favour of remaining (the lib dems) are absolutely nowhere. People like you don't seem to understand that the foundation of the remain argument was fear, that most people who voted to remain did so out of fear not love for the EU (Brexit voters are far more passionate and voted for it despite the risks) .That fear has dispersed, especially since this virus outbreak has put things in perspective. As an aside, London was the main remain voting area, hardly surprising given that many Londoners are of European/ foreign heritage...ie, not particularly pro-British. English people voted overwhelmingly to leave.

There was never going to be another major war between Western European countries after WW2, there was no desire for such a thing from anyone. If anything the EU is causing greater animosity between nations due to its obvious power grab...its attempts at post-democratic empire building. NATO kept peace between the Eastern bloc and Western Europe...and now it has former Eastern bloc countries as members because they see the benefit.

Whether you like it or not Japan illustrates that a war like country can develop into a peace loving country without being part of a trade cartel.

"Everybody in business knows this" , like fuck they do. They may believe it but they have no more idea of the future than you or I. None of them saw this virus coming did they? None of them knows where this disaster is leading...nor do they know the full ups and downs of Brexit. Only hubris on a monumental scale leads people into believing they know the future...that hubris is one of the markers of remain fanatics.

The EU is already under massive internal strain , this virus could bring it down.

“For the first time in history, the constitutional court has found that the actions and decisions of European bodies overstep their legitimate competence, and therefore have no validity in Germany,” said the court’s president, Andreas Vosskuhle. No country has dared to do this before since the creation of the Community in 1957. It is a revolutionary moment for the European project.

Here's a piece from the link that doesn't work for you...


North and South are today pursuing radically different policies, according to their economic means, and this will lead to radically different outcomes when Europe emerges from the Covid-19 depression. “It destroys the argument that the EU is rule-compliant. It hits that narrative on the head,” says Prof Lorand Bartels, an expert on trade law and Brexit at Cambridge University.

"Everybody in business knows this" , like fuck they do. — Chester

So, trade deals don't matter? Why bother getting one with other countries then? Oh wait...

You just bleat whatever fits your current argument and lose sight of consistency.

The Brexit side clearly won by well over a million votes. Bearing in mind the absolute avalanche of anti-Brexit propaganda coming from the main stream media that is an amazing result. — Chester

It didn't reflect a majority as that paper showed. It seems you don't understand statistics.

Also, the anti immigration bullshit being fed for years and the brexit lies didn't play a role either of course. Its the fact that referenda are woefully inadequate to reduce a complex issue to a binary choice.

"everybody in business knows this" is a bullshit statement...many people in business voted for Brexit. And to imply they know the future is the shit icing on shit cake.

Leave won by over a million votes , the English voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, I can't make it any clearer than that for you...and I'll tell you something else for free...most British people accept the result, it seems to be foreigners like yourself that have a problem with democracy.

Did you notice the Germans have dropped any idea of a level playing field ? Nation first for Deutschland.

They voted for brexit, not a no deal Brexit. So the statement isn't bullshit at all.

They didn't vote for a deal either...and now 50% of them support the Tories who are willing to accept no deal.

Cool. Have fun with 30 billion GDP cost associated with it.

I'm done. I hope you're one of the people that gets hit by those costs and not people who are actually sensible about these things.

If you are going to set a trade deal against democracy then the trade deal is going to lose every time in the UK....Europe maybe not.

I'm in the construction industry so I've already been hit with the costs of EU membership...low wages due to over supply of labour. In the 70's and 80's roofers earned far more in real terms than they do today.

It's globalisation what did it. Wages went down in other countries outside the EU too.

At least you're admitting that mass immigration isn't so great for the people that already live here...a step in the right direction.

I'm not, as I said it's globalisation what did it. Google globalisation.

Here's a link to a young Brexiteer's view of the current situation with regard to the British/EU trade negotiations. You'll notice that he's completely different to the kind of description that the liberal left try to push regarding who voted for Brexit. (You should also realise that the biggest single group who voted to remain were white over 65's).

Anyway, this is a video that will give you some perspective , some balance, if you've been buying into the narrative.

UK Negotiator HUMILIATES EU's Michel Barnier On Twitter

That's bullshit, the draft agreement sets out positions so that the Britain can have its cake and eat it. All Barnier wants to do is maintain the integrity of the single market and Union, so he can't agree to anything which compromises that. It's not his job to look out for the interests of a member state that chooses to leave, the integrity of the single market is far and away more important than that. So if the UK can't come up with something credible in this regard they won't negotiate.

The UK team along with the government has no intention of presenting anything credible because they want to heap the blame for everything on the EU and these sham talks enable them to do it. They have to heap the blame because the people who lended them their vote will be looking for someone to blame when the shit hits the fan and it's better for the government to blame the same old bogeyman.

Meanwhile there are secret trade talks going on in the US intended to throw something together without passing it by congress, or the senate, or parliament in the UK. To sneak a trade deal with the US through the back door. The problem is that Johnson will have to sell our soul for the yanks to agree to this and that includes the NHS.

Although, I gather you don't rate the NHS either, might as well sell it to the US if we get our freedom back.

Oh have you got the new slogan from the PM for releasing the lockdown, it's just use your common sense. Cummings's master plan to blame the victims of Covid for their own demise, namely they died because they didn't use their common sense.

Just like Rees Mogg claiming the the victims of the Grenfell tower tragedy died because they didn't use their common sense and run out of the building.

Clarity and leadership.