That, and, as I said way earlier: people like Biden are the people who gave us Trump to begin with. Trump is a direct result and phenomenon of policies supported and championed by Biden. They are not 'the same', but they both belong to the same ratchet mechanism that continues to pull American politics rightward and downward - and the rest of the world with it. Once you see the both as belonging to a cyclic phenomenon that continually co-opts all other paths out of it, the only option is Exit, not Voice.

It's not 'more pragmatic' to vote for Biden; it's acquiescing in a political suicide that's slower, rather than faster. A change of pace is not a change of direction.

OK -- and what framework is that exactly? — Xtrix

The framework that says everyone has to vote for a Dem or a Republican no matter who they are, or what they've done, or even what policies they have (as long as they're not as bad as the other guy).

the only option is Exit, not Voice. — StreetlightX

Yes, voting for Biden as the lesser of two evils just kicks the problem into the ever-lengthening grass.

@Xtrix

What you're doing from this point of view is making things worse in the long term for some minor short-term gain.

Some people actually believe in the principle of voting for those who most represent them both in terms of policy and character, regardless of strategic considerations. And if everyone voted that way, the two party system would eventually cease to exist because it relies on a despairing cynicism for the most part. — Baden

"Regardless of strategic considerations"? OK, in that case I agree. Like I've said before, I wanted Bernie Sanders as the nominee. In the end the votes weren't there. Granted, largely due to the media and the DNC rallying around Biden, but that could have been overcome. It wasn't -- should I be upset? Yes, and I am -- at the voters as well. But that seems to be the reality right now. Given this, what is left besides making a strategic choice -- if indeed one considers the goal of removing a cancer "strategy"?

OK -- and what framework is that exactly?
— Xtrix

The framework that says everyone has to vote for a Dem or a Republican no matter who they are, — Baden

It's not that you HAVE to. You don't HAVE to exercise and eat better, but if your goal is to lose weight that's something you should do. My top priority is addressing the climate crisis, as this is an existential threat. I assume we all agree on that. It's only one example, and there are others, but it's a good one because of its importance. If our goal is to remove an administration that is exacerbating the crisis during a time when scientists tell us we have 10-20 years to act in a meaningful way, what should we do? What achieves that goal?

Even strategically, the long term better strategy is to withdraw support from the Dems, at the very least until they become something like a left wing party. But as per street above, I think it's ultimately a systemic problem and your ability to resist is being whittled further and further away until eventually the people will be so weak the state will just be able to stomp all over them literally as well as figuratively. I don't have a very good answer here. But I can recognize a bad one when I see it.

My top priority is addressing the climate crisis, as this is an existential threat. — Xtrix

If I really thought Trump's further reign would make a huge difference globally on climate, it might sway me but, having read your last detailed post on it, I don't think even you believe it's decisive.

What you're doing from this point of view is making things worse in the long term for some minor short-term gain. — Baden

It's in fact exactly the opposite, given the reshaping of the courts and climate policy -- both having a lasting impact on people for years to come. Did voting third party in 2016 not have long-lasting effects? Trump has confirmed 1/4 of the circuit judges and two SCOTUS justices, for example. Plus we don't have time to play around.

It doesn't bother you at all that Trump or Biden will be the president one way or another? If I believed another candidate was viable, I'd be doing all I could to vote for them. This is all we have, currently. This is why Bernie Sanders has endorsed Biden (and Clinton), because at least then there is some say in what is done. With Trump, we're toast.

It's not improbable because politicians abuse their power all the time. And in this particular case, Reade reported the exact same story at the time to her neighbor and others. I think it's more likely true than not based on those facts alone. So, why do you think it's improbable? — Baden

Apparently you've made a decision on that question. — tim wood

Well, I read this as your "decision" about a possibility that he did something and not a categorical decision about whether he did or did not do the exact thing he's accused of doing. (Trapping an adult woman against a wall and digitally penetrating her.) One among us is convinced that's difficult to the point of impossibility. I'd go almost that far. Not impossible, but difficult with an uninterested woman, or especially one resisting in any way.

So you might choose not to do business with the man. I might too, there being more credible reports of his being an inappropriately hands-on kind of guy. But it comes down to an election. We might even repeat the old saw about democracy, substituting Biden's name: he is the worst of candidates, except for all the others, being in this case all one of them.

People will act in accord with their best lights. I just wish a lot of people had brighter bulbs.

Even strategically, the long term better strategy is to withdraw support from the Dems, at the very least until they become something like a left wing party. — Baden

I think the better strategy is to elect them and demand actions from them, not to (perhaps inadvertently) assist their opposition, who happen to be extremely dangerous.

If I really thought Trump's further reign would make a huge difference globally on climate, it might sway me but having read your last detailed post on it, I don't even think you believe it's decisive. — Baden

Then perhaps I didn't communicate it clearly enough: if Trump is re-elected, the odds for organized human life in the future are greatly diminished. It'll be a clear disaster, as any climate scientist will tell you.

What I said was that Biden is not the environmentalist's dream candidate and will not go as far as I'd like to see (in all probability). But being a +2 against a -15 is still a large improvement indeed.

if you get a second, read this.

I'd be interested in your perspective.

I don't think the answer is withdrawing, I think it's fighting. I think it's activism, organization, protests, lawsuits, etc. etc. Voting is only one action, done every four years. That's very limited democracy indeed, as you know. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, but it shouldn't be considered our only means of participation. Given our resources in this country, we have plenty of options available to us. This is how things change -- form the civil rights movement to the environmental movement to the gay rights movement. I am not advocating for a two-party system or even for the democratic party -- long term I'd like to see this destroyed -- but we have to think a little bigger than what button we push every four years, and it's in that larger context that we make that choice (which shouldn't take much mental effort, really): which of these rich, empty white guys do we think we can push more in the right direction? That's the attitude I take. We're also at a time where it really does matter, too, given climate change and nuclear weapons. It's no longer localized. So it won't do to simply walk away -- and even if that were a powerful strategy, we simply don't have the time to gamble on it. Too much needs to be done right now.

So if I were you, I'd help elect an administration that I could have some influence on and then help remove the puppet that they've installed if I believe he deserves removal. Not easy, but much more likely than if Trump is in office, and far better than passivity.

Remember, the democratic party IS changing -- look at AOC and Bernie. It's small, but that didn't happen from simply withdrawing support, it happened by fighting for something. Both run as Democrats...is that an issue? Is that supporting the DNC?

And if everyone thought like that the choice between Trump or Biden would never have come about.

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/05/joe-biden-move-left

"Congressional Democrats pretend they are really putting up an opposition to Trump, even though they keep supporting his corporate bailout bills — and progressive organizations in DC ask us to applaud the bait and switch. [As for Biden,] consider how condescending, how mocking, the entire “task force” dance really is. It’s as if the Biden campaign went into the basement of the DNC, dusted off a three-ring binder from 1983 titled “How To Run Campaigns,” and turned to page 863b for the section entitled “Post-Primary Unity Blueprint” — and we are all expected to pretend that this is something real.

We all know in our hearts that we don’t really need another “climate task force” — we know we just need a Democratic nominee who commits to supporting existing Green New Deal legislation; We all know we don’t really need a “health care task force.” We know we just need a Democratic nominee who commits to not vetoing Medicare for All legislation that is already co-sponsored by a majority of US House Democrats; We know all of this, so don’t deny it. We know Biden could just choose right now to endorse these things, and we know he is actively choosing not to do that — at least not yet. He is instead ripping the page out of that ancient DNC binder and choosing to put forward vague task forces, expecting us all to pretend he isn’t deliberately shirking concrete legislative commitments, and further pretend that a task force process is some serious, truthful, totally above-board move for consensus".

---

https://theintercept.com/2020/05/12/heroes-act-coronavirus-health-insurance-industry/

Re: the democratic party's latest bailout bill:

"This week, Axios reported that House Democrats are working on legislation to “ensure that people aren’t ‘double-dipping’ into the different pots of money” — for instance, “they do not want someone who is receiving more unemployment money to also receive money through the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP).”; At the same time, Democratic lawmakers are pushing new bills that would let corporate lobbying organizations and dark money groups in Washington grab some of that dwindling PPP money for themselves before the cash gets to more mom-and-pop businesses teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. Moreover, the legislation would knowingly help some politically connected industries effectively double-dip on giant bailouts for themselves."

--

All this to say nothing of the democrats' acceding to the latest expansion of the 'patriot' act (which, to recall, Biden practically wrote).

--

Anyone who thinks Joe Biden and the democrats have anything to offer are fucking delusional. Even if one could be convinced to ignore Biden's past maliciousness - which is anything but 'past' insofar as millions of people are currently paying for it today - even his current conduct and that of his party are fucking evil. Any dewey eyed belief in whatever dangling promissory note he has to offer is insanity. It's like those wretched battered partners of abusive relationships who believe - against all reason and evidence - that things will change after the baby of the election.

neonspectraltoast
159
I can't vote for a rapist. I'll be sitting this one out. — neonspectraltoast

If you do not vote...you will not be "sitting this one out." You will be helping Trump. Trump, and the GOP, are hoping as many people as possible "sit this one out." Trump and the GOP are doing every thing they can to get as many people as possible to "sit this one out."

Baden
10.2k
The accusation against Biden does not make sense to me. It seems to me to violate what a famous lawyer called "the rule of probability." That is, in the particulars it seems too unlikely and improbable.
— tim wood

No it doesn't. It's not only very probable, it happens all the time. E.g. Trump, Clinton. What planet do you live on? — Baden

It happens all the time????????

A person who has never been accused of any kind of sex deviance at all...and a SENATOR at that...

...attempts to assault a woman IN THE HALLS OF THE SENATE IN THE CAPITOL BUILDING!

Backs the woman against the wall...and manages to insert his fingers into her vagina?

THAT happens all the time?

What planet do YOU live on, Baden?

What planet do YOU live on, Baden? — Frank Apisa

This one, where the American halls of political power are filled to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_sex_scandals_in_the_United_States with sexual misconduct.

The pearl clutching is hilarious. Your senators and representatives are sexual freaks, and have been since day one. Biden 'hair sniff hall predator' is no exception, but a conformist to the rule.

StreetlightX
5.2k
What planet do YOU live on, Baden?
— Frank Apisa

This one, where the American halls of political power are filled to the literal brim with sexual misconduct. And that endless list being just the convicted ones.

The pearl clutching is hilarious. Your senators and representatives are sexual freaks, and have been since day one. Biden 'hair sniff hall predator' is no exception, but a conformist to the rule. — StreetlightX

So you are another one who thinks senators regularly back staffers into walls and shove their fingers up their vaginas?

Jesus H. Christ!

I don't just think it - I'm going by juridical record. Feel free to ignore reality of course.

Scratch an establishment politican, find a moral lowlife.

StreetlightX
5.2k
↪Frank Apisa I don't just think it - I'm going by juridical record. Feel free to ignore reality of course.

Scratch an establishment politican, find a moral lowlife. — StreetlightX

There is a "judicial record" of senators backing staffers up against the walls in the Capitol Building...and shoving their fingers into their vaginas?

What the hell world are you living in?

Maybe you missed my Wiki link.

:sparkle: Here it is again. :sparkle:

Here's at least :sparkle: 90 lawmakers since 2017 :sparkle: at the state level alone.

Maybe step outside every once in a while, little lamb.

StreetlightX
5.2k
↪Frank Apisa Maybe you missed my Wiki link.

:sparkle: Here it is again. :sparkle:

Here's at least :sparkle: 90 lawmakers since 2017 :sparkle: at the state level alone. — StreetlightX

Wow...a list. What next...a grocery list?

Please point out on that list where a senator backed a woman up against a wall in the Capitol Building...and put his forced his hands into her vagina.

THAT was what we were discussing.

Supposedly, according to Baden, it happens all the time.

So?

I'm sorry you don't English good. Must be a hard life.

Also you like using explicit sexual imaginary alot. You got some issues to work out. Maybe stay away from women for the time being. Maybe forever.

StreetlightX
5.2k
↪Frank Apisa I'm sorry you don't English good. Must be a hard life.

Also you like using explicit sexual imaginary alot. You got some issues to work out. — StreetlightX

We were discussing senators forcing staff up against a wall and forcing their fingers into their vagina.

We were discussing how difficult that would be.

Now you are presenting cases of politicians doing things that easily can be done...as evidence that the near impossible could easily be done.

Quit while you are far behind. You obviously do not have the intellectual resources to catch up.

God you're thick lol.

The only thing to blame if Trump is reelected is the superficiality, stupidity, childishness, and greed of Democrats. There were good candidates in 2016; you chose Clinton. There were good candidates in 2020; you chose the creep whose entire campaign rests upon the fact that he's "not Trump."

I honestly don't think most Americans value decency. They value prestige.

The only thing to blame if Trump is reelected is the superficiality, stupidity, childishness, and greed of Democrats. — neonspectraltoast

And people here - and elsewhere - want to reward them for it, and then blame those who do not.

Notably, unlike a certain bullshit effort of mental gymnastics in which not voting counts as voting, this is a rather straightforward case in which voting for someone tautologically implies support.

StreetlightX
5.2k
God you're thick lol. — StreetlightX

No. YOU are, though.

You are moving the goalposts all over the place to make it seem you have a decent argumetn.

Ain't gonna happen...because you do not.

So...best to continue with the deflection. That IS what you've got.

StreetlightX
5.2k
The only thing to blame if Trump is reelected is the superficiality, stupidity, childishness, and greed of Democrats.
— neonspectraltoast

And people here - and elsewhere - want to reward them for it, and then blame those who do not.

Notably, unlike a certain bullshit effort of mental gymnastics in which not voting counts as voting, this is a rather straightforward case in which voting for someone tautologically implies support. — StreetlightX

I support Joe Biden. He was not my first choice...but he is a fine choice.

He is a decent man who has been pragmatic throughout his career. He's make lots of mistakes...which is what happens when you do a lot.

So withhold your vote...and aid Trump.

Sounds to me like you should be supporting him outright. You sound like one of those kind.