but he is a fine choice.

He is a decent man who has been pragmatic throughout his career. — Frank Apisa

You've got rather low expectations.

Benkei
2.9k
but he is a fine choice.

He is a decent man who has been pragmatic throughout his career.
— Frank Apisa

You've got rather low expectations. — Benkei

No, I do not have low expectations. I have realistic expectations.

And I am not as jaded as some of the people who populate the Internet forums.

At 83, I've seen several instances of "these are the worst of times."

Meh. I did live during the Second World War...so I've seen some really horrible times. But even then, I was living in America...and the shooting and bombing being felt in Europe and the Far East were not a part of my life.

I did live during the Vietnam War...and the turbulent 60's - 70's. In some ways, that was even more ghastly.

I lived through the Nixon era...and thought that was horrendous. But compared with today...that was a piece of cake. Nixon, with all of his faults, was ten times the president that Trump could ever be...even if Trump were able to get past mental age 8.

Biden will be enough of an improvement over Trump to make all this chatter about his "character" and "intellectualism" to be like talking about sunscreen during a nuclear attack.

Summary: "not Trump" therefore decent. As I said, very low expectations.

I get that you're at the point where voting for the lesser evil feels like a morally outstanding act (I disagree but we don't need to repeat that dance ad nauseum). But you're still voting for a sleazebag so let's not call Biden decent, shall we?

voting for someone tautologically implies support — StreetlightX

We are all responsible for the reasonably predictable consequences of our actions. We can predict with reasonable certainty that a second Trump term will be a catastrophe for the US and the larger world. With Biden, at least there is a chance of improvement.

In a perfect world we would not have to choose between two deeply flawed candidates, but - as the saying goes - we need to accept that there are things we cannot change. I wish that the Democratic Party had found a better candidate, but if it comes down to Biden vs. Trump, I will hold my nose and vote for Biden.

That said, even if we go with your notion that voting for someone tautologically implies support, there are varying levels and degrees of support. You can like certain things about a candidate and dislike others.

If you would otherwise vote Democrat but are staying at home or voting 3rd party because of your dislike of Biden, then you are tautologically casting a vote for Trump.

If you would otherwise vote Democrat but are staying at home or voting 3rd party because of your dislike of Biden, then you are tautologically casting a vote for Trump. — EricH

Again with the mental gymnastics.

A third of Republicans say they dont know. What convinced you?

Again with the mental gymnastics. — StreetlightX

I do mental gymnastics every day - it's part of my exercise routine.

I'm judging based on his statements and voting history not the latest scandal of which the facts aren't available.

Logic lesson: I have an apple. I've refused to give my apple to Joe or Don. Therefore, I did not give my apple to Joe or Don. The fact that I would have given my apple to Joe if Joe hadn't (probably) raped Tara still does not mean I gave my apple to Don. And it doesn't matter how many apples other people give to Joe or Don or what the consequences of giving them are, not giving an apple to Joe can never be equivalent to giving an apple to Don not least because nobody can get my apple unless I give it to them. Further, if I give my apple to third party Jesse, I also did not give my apple to Don because I only have one apple and Jesse can't give my apple away once I give it to him. Finally, the right to give or not give my apple to whoever I want is fundamental to what it means to have a friggin' apple in the first place.

How do you like them apples?

I'm judging based on his statements and voting history not the latest scandal of which the facts aren't available. — Benkei

I see. Could you tell me what in his voting history you object to?

- exempting student loans from bankruptcy. (Lenders run no risk on those loans! Lucrative shit!)
- opposed to Medicare for all despite a pandemic raging
- Mandatory minimum sentencing. When he declared "It doesn’t matter whether or not [accused criminals are] the victims of society. I don’t want to ask, ‘What made them do this?' They must be taken off the street." Well, fuck you too Joe.
- Biden "let's segregate students" https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/joe-biden-didn-t-just-compromise-segregationists-he-fought-their-n1021626
- He voted for every possible war: Iraq and Afghanistan, intervening in Kosovo
- an uncritical self-proclaimed zionist

And you would describe anyone who agrees with those attitudes as an indecent sleezebag?

Are you asking me to entertain whether racists are decent people?

Is that your perspective? That Biden is racist?

Benkei
2.9k
↪Frank Apisa Summary: "not Trump" therefore decent. As I said, very low expectations.

I get that you're at the point where voting for the lesser evil feels like a morally outstanding act (I disagree but we don't need to repeat that dance ad nauseum). But you're still voting for a sleazebag so let's not call Biden decent, shall we? — Benkei

I consider Biden to be a decent man...and an intelligent one.

If you do not like that consideration...don't read what I write.

I had a higher priority choice, but now that Biden has it, I support him with enthusiasm. Our country will be a much better country with him at the helm.

Our country will be a much better country with him at the helm. — Frank Apisa

Slightly less bad maybe. It seems you've lost all sense of decency and social justice. I suppose if you live in a sewer you'll eventually stop smelling shit.

If you do not vote...you will not be "sitting this one out." You will be helping Trump. Trump, and the GOP, are hoping as many people as possible "sit this one out." Trump and the GOP are doing every thing they can to get as many people as possible to "sit this one out." — Frank Apisa

And succeeding -- again. You have to hand it to them -- they know how to play the game, so well in fact that they'll get millions of people to vote against their interests -- including progressives.

Quit while you are far behind. You obviously do not have the intellectual resources to catch up. — Frank Apisa

Best bet is to ignore that one until he grows up or says something interesting. No sense pretending to have a rational conversation.

So withhold your vote...and aid Trump. — Frank Apisa

The impulse to want to do the morally upstanding thing is fine -- but what these people don't want to here is that this is both missing the point (because it's not simply about a candidate's character) and will actually cause more long-term damage, counter to their professed goals.

We are all responsible for the reasonably predictable consequences of our actions. We can predict with reasonable certainty that a second Trump term will be a catastrophe for the US and the larger world. With Biden, at least there is a chance of improvement.

In a perfect world we would not have to choose between two deeply flawed candidates, but - as the saying goes - we need to accept that there are things we cannot change. I wish that the Democratic Party had found a better candidate, but if it comes down to Biden vs. Trump, I will hold my nose and vote for Biden. — EricH

Exactly right, but also something more important: will a Biden administration or Trump administration be more open to progressive goals? Take them both out of the equation -- I don't like either -- and answer the question seriously. I don't think it's that hard. So why should we shoot ourselves in the foot because the DNC are corrupt? They managed to rally around Biden and got enough people to vote for him. It was sleazy how they did that, but in my view rolling over isn't an option. First, kick Trump out, the secondly push the Democrat administration towards what we (and Bernie) want. This is in fact why Bernie is supporting Biden, who's already made concessions (and ought to).

If you would otherwise vote Democrat but are staying at home or voting 3rd party because of your dislike of Biden, then you are tautologically casting a vote for Trump. — EricH

Simple arithmetic, yes. A vote for third party is a throw-away vote. No one is arguing seriously that a third party candidate has a chance of winning. To throw a vote away that would otherwise have gone to a less harmful candidate is helping the more damaging party (which is also not seriously disputed). It may make you feel better, and you may think you're doing the right thing -- fine. But let's not argue with simple counting.

If Donald gets more apples than Joe, he's going to drive up to your house (or apartment) and dump a truckload of toxic waste in your front yard.

Then he going to takes everyone's apples away from them except for people he likes.

Logic lesson: I have an apple. I've refused to give my apple to Joe or Don. Therefore, I did not give my apple to Joe or Don. The fact that I would have given my apple to Joe if Joe hadn't (probably) raped Tara still does not mean I gave my apple to Don. — Baden

True. But if I, your neighbor, votes for Trump and you've abstained, then Trump wins.

No one is saying you're literally casting a vote for Trump, Baden. If this is what you're hung up on, then I gladly retract it: you are NOT in fact casting a vote for Trump. You are, however, assisting Trump in getting elected. Perhaps I should have said you're "essentially casting a vote for Trump," but I figured this didn't need to be said and that you'd assume I didn't actually believe you were literally writing in Trump's name or pushing a button for him.

Put it this way: because you have not given your apple to either candidate, Trump now has one apple and Biden has 0. Trump wins with more apples. Thus you've inadvertently helped Trump win -- which he knows quite well, which is why he encourages Bernie to run as an independent and for those upset about how Bernie was treated to not vote. We learned from 2016 what the consequences are from this. (And this is not to blame only third party voters.)

I'm sure you don't dispute this. From my reading, it seems you just don't see much of a difference between the two, e.g. what you said about climate policy. In that case I just disagree and then the discussion becomes about whether or not there is a significant difference. But at least let's not argue about arithmetic.

So some people literally can't understand how an election works? wtf?

Let's cut off our noses to spite our faces by throwing our votes away, thus essentially repeating 2016 and helping re-elect Trump, who will continue taking us backwards, ruining the environment in a time scientists tell us we need action, appoint possibly two more Supreme Court justices (7-2 conservative majority) and many more circuit court judges for lifetime terms (making nearly 1/3 of all appellate judges Trump appointees), take us closer to nuclear holocaust by ramping up the nuclear arms race, etc. etc.

The reason isn't a bad one -- Biden is a terrible candidate. But what will be the consequences? Possible destruction of organized human life and at the very least a completely overhauled judicial branch, which will reverberate for generations to come. To top it off -- there will still be a rapist in office.

So some people literally can't understand how an election works? wtf? — frank

The person with the most votes (in the right states thanks to the electoral college) wins. It's not difficult.

What's apparently difficult is understanding how throwing away a vote also has an effect -- one that runs counter to one's professed goals.

:lol:

Perhaps I should have said you're "essentially casting a vote for Trump," — Xtrix

You're not in any way casting a vote for Trump.

Thus you've inadvertently helped Trump win — Xtrix

Yeah, very different thing. The language matters because it's about responsibility. The only people directly responsible for Trump being in office are those who vote for him.

It's like: if I sit on the floor and hold my breath, maybe someone will notice and care, and do some unspecified good because of my display of toddlerhood.

Yeah, very different thing. The language matters because it's about responsibility. The only people directly responsible for Trump being in office are those who vote for him. — Baden

Bullshit.

The only people who think that way...are people who don't truly think. They just shoot off their mouths.

An election is about a lot more than getting people to vote FOR you...it also is about working to insure others DO NOT vote for your opponent.

That is the reason the GOP is so anxious to get as few people to the polls as possible...because fewer people voting help insure their victory.

People with your mindset, Baden, are as much responsible for Trump having been elected...as are the people who actually voted for Hillary Clinton.

And people with your mindset may be responsible for getting Trump re-elected. All so that you can claim some bogus moral superiority.

I repeat something I previously shared: People with your mindset, Baden, are the reason brilliant men like Voltaire, Confucius, and Shakespeare wrote:

“The best is the enemy of the good.”

"Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."

“Striving to better, oft we mar what's well.”

Thus you've inadvertently helped Trump win
— Xtrix

Yeah, very different thing. The language matters because it's about responsibility. The only people directly responsible for Trump being in office are those who vote for him. — Baden

Fine. And we who are opposed to Trump, recognizing that he is a sociopath and, more importantly, runs an administration that is destroying the prospects of future human life, have what kind of responsibility? None? "Indirect"?

It's like: if I sit on the floor and hold my breath, maybe someone will notice and care, and do some unspecified good because of my display of toddlerhood. — frank

Eh, let's not make it a cartoon version. Their intentions are well-meaning, in my view, but they're simply making a mistake. They don't see the full implications of another Trump term, or don't see Biden as any different.

To reduce it to utter simplicity: let's say both men are equally terrible as people, man A and man B. One will destroy the planet (terrible man A), one will not (terrible man B) -- and we acknowledge this fact, say fact "X."

Given X, who do you want to see in charge? (Fully acknowledging it's still a bad choice indeed.)

If it's the latter (B), then the next question is: what if I sit out, or vote for someone besides the two terrible men?

If the answer turns out to be: it helps man A, what then? Do we change our mind and vote directly for man B? If not, given we accept X, how can we live with this choice? Is it not saying that doing the "right thing" is a greater priority -- is more important -- than human existence?

I think the problem with the people on this thread is that they don't accept X. But that's exactly what I want to discuss, because I think there's overwhelming evidence supporting it, which comes directly from science.