• Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    It was suggested by someone in my "why are we here" thread that I should start a thread about "general philosophy" stuff that interests me, so I thought I would do that, starting with this.

    I have observed a kind of structure, a set of symmetries and parallels, in the sub-fields of philosophy itself, that I haven't really seen explicitly called out anywhere, especially not all together like this. I think taking note of this structure can be useful in resolving some existing philosophical problems and guiding future research.

    There are three dimensions to this structure.

    The first is the descriptive vs prescriptive axis. This one seems pretty well observed by others. The very first Intro to Philosophy class I ever took was structured around this axis: the first half of the class was about metaphysics, epistemology, etc, and the second half of the class was on ethics, political philosophy, etc. The major program I graduated from had two... I forget what they called them, some kind of sub-majors or something... one that they called "core philosophy" that focused again on metaphysics, epistemology, etc, and another called something like "justice and ethics" that focused on ethics, political philosophy, etc. That pair of foci is what got me interested in philosophy to begin with, since my prior interests were basically in the physical sciences and certain social sciences like economics and political science, and finding a field that had sub-fields that seemed to underlay both of those piqued my interest. Noticing that two-fold nature of philosophy is what got me looking into the structure of the field as a whole, looking for symmetries between the two sides, whenever I learned something new about a descriptive topic wondering "what's the prescriptive analogue of this?" and vice versa.

    The second axis I can't think of a good name for. "Beings" vs "doings" maybe, though that sounds dumb. Basically, it's the axis along which ontology and epistemology are oriented. Ontology is about things, epistemology is about a process; "objects" and "methods" is another pair of terms I sometimes use for this axis. I'm finding it hard to describe this axis without first describing the next, third axis, but for right now I'll just say that I think dividing up ethics into two fields along this axis can help resolve the conflict between utilitarianism and deontological ethics: something like utilitarianism gives an answer to the moral equivalent of ontology, about what things are good, what makes a state of affairs morally valuable, while something like deontological ethics gives an answer to the moral equivalent of epistemology, about what processes or methods for pursuing good states of affairs are justified. In the same way that epistemology can't just be solved by saying "believe whatever kinds of things are real according to this ontology, then you have knowledge"; it's important to suss out exactly which of that kind of thing is real by those standards.

    The third axis we might call the abstract vs practical axis, or the pro-phi vs pop-phi axis maybe, since popular philosophy seems to focus more on the "practical" side and professional philosophy more on the "abstract" side. On the practical/popular side are things like philosophy of mind and will, political philosophy, and philosophy of religion. On the abstract/professional side are things like ontology, epistemology, and ethics. Even further in the abstract direction are things like philosophy of art, philosophy of math, and especially philosophy of language. In the other direction, even further in the practical direction, are fields I'm unaware of names of, but basically "existential" or "absurdist" topics about "the meaning of life", but also things like how to be an enlightened and empowered person, and how to spread that to others, both for their own personal development but also for the bolstering of social institutions that depend on an enlightened and empowered populace, like the institutions of scientific peer-review, or an anarchic government.


    Put all of these things together, and I visualize a literally three-dimensional structure made of cubes each representing a philosophical field. I'll try to describe it. Picture first a 2x2 grid, with the horizontal axis being the descriptive-prescriptive one, and the vertical axis being the objects-methods one. In the top left is ontology. In the bottom left is epistemology. In the top right is half of ethics, the half for which something like utilitarianism gives an answer, which I like to call "teleology", since "teleological ethics" is sometimes used as a name for that kind of ethical theory. In the bottom right is the other half of ethics, "deontology", for obvious reasons.

    Below them in the third dimension, picture another 2x2 grid, same axes. Below ontology, about the objects of reality, is philosophy of mind, about the subjects of reality. Below "teleology", about the objects (as in aims or goals) of morality, is philosophy of will, about the subjects of morality (since moral agency and responsibility is why freedom of will matters to anyone). Below epistemology is a field I don't know a good name for, but it's basically about education and its relationship to religions, about freedom of thought vs authoritarian dogma, etc; it's the descriptive analogue of political philosophy, which is just to the right of it, below "deontology", which connects to that in hopefully obvious ways.

    Above all of that in the third dimension, picture two more cubes, one situated on the border between ontology and epistemology, another situated on the border between "teleology" and "deontology". Then picture a third cube above them in the third dimension, on their border. That highest cube in the third dimension is philosophy of language. The other two below it to either side are philosophy of mathematics on the left, and philosophy of art on the right. They connect to philosophy of language via logic (about the content and structure of communication) in the former case and rhetoric (about the packaging and delivery of communication) in the latter case. Philosophy of mathematics has obvious connections to ontology, and logic has obvious connections to epistemology. And philosophy of art / aesthetics is already usually grouped together with all of ethics under the banner of axiology, having to do with all kinds of value.

    Lastly, below all of that in the third dimension, the same kind of three-cube arrangement but inverted. The lowest cube is whatever you call that field that existentialism and absurdism are working in, about the meaning of life. I also put philosophy of action down here. The other two cubes connecting to that are the other unnamed fields I described above, about enlightenment and empowerment. Both of these have connections to meaningfulness of life, but enlightenment also has connections to the topics of mind and education/religion, while empowerment has connections to the topics of will and politics.


    I find that noting these parallels and structures is very useful in thinking about how to approach different topics, by comparing them to their parallels; and it seems like at least some historical philosophers have at least implicitly thought along these lines too. John Stuart Mill, for example, has both an ontology and a "teleology" that follow the same approach: an objectivist phenomenalism, a radically empirical realism (reality isn't just in the mind but it's made of nothing more than observables) on the one hand, and a radically hedonic altruism (utilitarianism) on the other hand. Kant, meanwhile, was both anti-confirmationist in his epistemology, and of course anti-consequentialist in his deontology, parallel approaches to the parallel subjects. I agree with both of them in those respective domains.

    Furthermore, I observe that in philosophy of mind, we've begun (with Ned Block et al) to think in terms of two different senses of "consciousness", differentiating the spooky metaphysical topic of phenomenal "consciousness" from the straightforward functional topic of access "consciousness". Parallel to that, in philosophy of will, we have the spooky metaphysical kind of "free will" that incompatibilists are concerned about, and the straightforward functional kind of "free will" that contemporary compatibilists like Frankfurt and Wolff are concerned about. I at least see the answers to questions on both sides of that parallel as the same: both phenomenal "consciousness" and incompatibilist "free will" are everywhere, even an electron has them, and that makes them boring and unimportant; it's the specific reflexive functions of the mind and the will that constitute access consciousness and compatibilist free will that are interesting and important.

    On a parallel along a different axis, the "objects" vs "methods" axis, I think there are similar answers to be had to questions about the institutions of education and governance as those I just recounted about the mind and the will. "Mind" and "will" are in one trivial sense distributed universally, but it's not until things form specific structures with specific functions that they really begin to manifest in the way we usually mean them. Likewise, as a supporter of both freethought and philosophical anarchism, I see both epistemic and deontic authority as widely distributed throughout society in a sense that makes them basically trivial and nonexistent, nobody really has any significant authority of either kind inherent in them, but they've all got equal tiny amounts of it, and when those people form the right kinds of social structures they can create institutions that do in effect have some semblance of authority in the sense we usually mean it, educational and governmental institutions, yet not religions and states. We have very successful irreligious educational institutions in the world today, and I think that noting the structures of those and transposing them to the other side of the descriptive-prescriptive axis could yield equally successful stateless governance institutions.


    I don't know how to end this post, so I'll just comment that this kind of structure is basically what my book exists to illustrate, showing rather than telling, but I thought maybe people might find it more interesting if I just told like this.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Oh a bit I forgot to add about that third axis, the practical-abstract one: it seems like that's the axis around which competing broad trends in philosophy seem to align. Ionians vs Italiotes, Platonists vs Aristotelians, Rationalists vs Empiricists, Analytic vs Continental. Each period has its own take on it, but there always seems to be one side that's more about the abstract, ideal, mathematical, linguistic stuff, and another that's about the experiential, embodied, practical life.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Another bit I forgot last night was to explain the connection between epistemology and deontology and the fields “below” them in the third axis. The top two are both fields about methods, about how to go about something; the fields below them are about who is to execute those methods, who are epistemic and deontic authorities, the institutions of knowledge and justice respectively.

    Combined with the fields of mind and will being about the subjects of reality and morality, this makes that entire bottom layer of that main cube all about questions of “who” in some sense.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    basically what my book exists to illustrate, showing rather than tellingPfhorrest
    The "telling" in your first post went right over my non-academic head, as usual. Even though I'm an Architect, those multidimensional structures are very difficult for me to visualize --- too many moving parts --- and the technical terminology would require lots of Wikipedia study to understand the interrelationships. It's like trying to imagine a 12 dimensional geometrical object, with multiple faces labelled in Latin or Greek.

    Have you ever tried to draw a diagram --- a "showing" --- perhaps similar to the 3D Political Spectrum diagram in the link below? I'm trying to be encouraging, but my bafflement is hard to conceal. :brow:


    3D Political Spectrum : https://medium.com/@even.aesphasian/3d-political-spectrum-4870f06f2f49
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I will try to draw a diagram to help better illustrate soon.

    An incompletely structured diagram showing at least all of the fields is this:

    codex-structure.png

    I just need to arrange those middle eight into a cube.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I took a stab at it, not super easy to read because it's a 3D structure that's not animated like the one you linked, but I tried to compensate with transparency, so it's something maybe:

    philosophy-structure.png
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    I took a stab at it, not super easy to read because it's a 3D structure that's not animated like the one you linked, but I tried to compensate with transparency, so it's something maybe:Pfhorrest
    This is a start. A picture is worth a thousand esoteric words. But, I need some arrows or links between boxes to indicate functional interrelationships, and a logical (or value or causal) hierarchy. Just static categories floating in space give no sense of dynamic structure.

    From what I see here, Language (conventional meaning) works through all those other experiential categories to produce Values (the meaning of life upon which our personal actions are based). Taken all together, this may be a diagram of a generic worldview. :nerd:


    PS___There are some 3D presentation software packages that provide tools for just such multi-dimensional models. One option is a PowerPoint add-on. Some claim to be free, but some may be costly.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    But, I need some arrows or links between boxes to indicate functional interrelationships, and a logical (or value or causal) hierarchy.Gnomon

    Their relations to each other in space depicts their relationships (which are explained more in words earlier). And there isn’t a hierarchy, it’s not like one is prior to another; you could approach it all from multiple angles and order them accordingly for each.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    Their relations to each other in space depicts their relationships (which are explained more in words earlier). And there isn’t a hierarchy, it’s not like one is prior to another; you could approach it all from multiple angles and order them accordingly for each.Pfhorrest
    But without a Logical or Hierarchical or Causal flow diagram, it's just a static snapshot of a complex ideology. :cool:
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    It’s not of an ideology, but of the topical structure of philosophy itself, how the different subfields relate to each other. There’s no specific views of any of those fields embedded in this structure.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    It’s not of an ideology, but of the topical structure of philosophy itself, how the different subfields relate to each other. There’s no specific views of any of those fields embedded in this structure.Pfhorrest
    I was using the term "ideology" in its philosophical sense as a unique system of ideas, not in the pejorative sense of someone else's erroneous political beliefs.

    I'd still like to see a diagram of how those category boxes relate to each other, and to the whole system of philosophy. A simplistic interpretation of the un-linked boxes is that Language somehow determines Action. That seems to be a vaguely Postmodern worldview. But it's obvious that most languages, including slang, contain implicit beliefs, encoded into words, that affect behavior subconsciously. So, I'm assuming you have something less obvious in mind. That's why a diagram of structural relationships (links between sub-categories) would increase understanding of the message you're trying to convey.

    Perhaps your concept could be encapsulated into a single label (word or phrase) that would be suggestive of the overall meaning of your concept or worldview. For example, my coinage of Enformationism was intended to imply a worldview based on the universal role of Information (Spinoza's Single Substance), as opposed to the ancient notions of Spiritualism (spirit is all) or Materialism (matter is all). Information is both Spirit/Mind (metaphysics) and Matter/Energy (physics). What is your diagram about? :chin:
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I think you're misunderstanding the whole general thrust of this thread.

    I'm not putting forward any ideas about particular philosophical questions. I'm noting my observations of the relationships between different philosophical questions.

    Language and Action are on opposite sides of the vertical axis because they are the most distantly related topics in that respect: one is abstract, the other is practical. Logic, mathematics, rhetoric, and the arts are all abstract too, so they're closer to that side. But e.g. political philosophy is more practical, so it's closer to the other side.

    The left half is all things to do with reality and knowledge, and the right half is all things to do with morality and justice. Fields to the left or right of each other are the descriptive or prescriptive analogues of each other.

    And so on, as described in more detail already in the OP.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    I think you're misunderstanding the whole general thrust of this thread.Pfhorrest
    So, what is the "general thrust" of this thread and your book : that there are general categories of philosophical questions? . . . that there are relationships between those categories? Are you adding any new information to the ongoing philosophical dialogue? If so, how would you characterize that novel concept? Does your personal "topical structure" overturn older ideas, or reveal heretofore unknown significance within the space of philosophical possibilities? If the answers to these questions were revealed in the OP, please give me a refresher. :confused:
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    The thrust of this thread is just the general categories of philosophical questions and the relationships between them.

    This thread is not about my book, but my book is guided by the observation of those relationships. I went into more detail on how in the OP, but for one quick example: looking at the parallels between the descriptive questions about reality and knowledge and the prescriptive questions about morality and justice reveals that there really ought to be two fields on the right side of the chart where "ethics" would normally go: one that corresponds to ontology, and the other that corresponds to epistemology; one that's about the objects, as in aims, goals, or ends, of morality, and another that's about the methods, as in the means, of morality. This suggests that consequentialist or teleological ethics shouldn't be at odds with deontological ethics, because they are not different answers to the same question, they are answers to different questions.

    Also an example from the OP: looking for the descriptive parallel of political philosophy suggests that it is something to do with education and its relationship to religion, which then turns around and suggests ways that stateless governance (anarchy) can be structured in a way mirroring irreligious education. In this thread I'm not advancing ideas like that, but pointing out the parallels between fields, and how thoughts about one may have implications on another.
  • Valentinus
    1.6k

    If I understand the proposition correctly, the reason why one might object to any part of it is already a part of the argument.

    Why proceed in this way? Why not simply argue that such and such is true and let the chips fall where they may?
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I don't understand what you mean.
  • Valentinus
    1.6k
    You say:

    "Ontology is about things, epistemology is about a process; "objects" and "methods" is another pair of terms I sometimes use for this axis."

    Your map comes up against some of the most disagreed things. Treating the matters as a premise is boring.
  • Amity
    5.1k
    This thread is not about my book, but my book is guided by the observation of those relationships.Pfhorrest

    Disingeneous. It clearly promotes your book, even if only indirectly.

    I'll just comment that this kind of structure is basically what my book exists to illustrate,Pfhorrest

    This apparently throwaway line came at the end of a long and dense OP. Self promoting.

    The definitive title of the thread misleads.
    Just as in your other thread:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/8246/the-philosophy-writing-management-triangle

    Indeed, both arguably break the Guidelines whereby you should be 'Capable of writing a decent title that accurately and concisely describes the content of your OP.'
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    This suggests that consequentialist or teleological ethics shouldn't be at odds with deontological ethics, because they are not different answers to the same question, they are answers to different questions.Pfhorrest
    Since I am not an academic philosopher, I don't spend much time thinking about such questions. So I doubt that I would have anything significant to add to the structural diagram you have in mind. My suggestions above were mostly about the graphic presentation. With a static stack of boxes, it doesn't have much meaning for those not already knowledgeable about the technical details of philosophical minutiae. Valentinus seems to be better suited to critique your work. :chin:
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Every philosophical idea I’ve ever had, I have incorporated into my book, so every original thought I have to talk about is related to it in some way. Neither this nor the other thread are explicitly about the book though, but about things related to writing philosophy in general or to the structure of philosophy in general. At least until people like you insist on making it about the book, and derail the thread, and then point at your derailment as evidence to justify itself.

    FWIW I checked with the admins before and they explicitly suggested doing threads like this (and I actually ran the writing thread in entirety past them first and got an enthusiastic go-ahead).
  • Amity
    5.1k
    At least until people like you insist on making it about the book, and derail the thread, and then point at your derailment as evidence to justify itself.Pfhorrest

    :rofl:
    I am beginning to understand the previous drama which unfolded before my return to TPF and resulted in your banning, then unbanning.

    You just don't listen properly and you misrepresent.
    At no point have I insisted on making it anything about the damned book. And there has been no derailment by me.
    Indeed, in the Triangle thread I was the one trying to keep it on topic. Look again:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/8246/the-philosophy-writing-management-triangle

    FWIW I checked with the admins before and they explicitly suggested doing threads like this (and I actually ran the writing thread in entirety past them first and got an enthusiastic go-ahead).Pfhorrest

    Really ? Ah well then. I guess we can look forward to more of the same. Hopefully not.
    A series of misleading titles not reflecting the content of a long and dense, selfcentred OP :down:
    I will be checking with @Baden
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Pretty sure @jamalrob outranks him and he’s the one who okayed everything.

    Your username does not accurately reflect your content.
  • Amity
    5.1k
    Pretty sure jamalrob outranks him and he’s the one who okayed everything.

    Your username does not accurately reflect your content.
    Pfhorrest

    You said 'the admins'. They are a team. And I've already been talking with @Baden

    Seriously ?
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    They are a team, but jamalrob owns the site.

    I asked him for admin consensus, so presumably he spoke to the others.
  • Jamal
    9.7k
    Quit trolling. If you have nothing to say about the topic, shut it.
  • Amity
    5.1k
    Quit trolling. If you have nothing to say about the topic, shut it.jamalrob

    Wow. 'Shut it'. I will. Permanently.
  • Jamal
    9.7k
    Thank you.
  • Amity
    5.1k

    :zip:
    Goodbye for good.
    I was advised not to return. I should have listened.
  • praxis
    6.5k


    I suggest that you quit the forum because you don’t enjoy or get anything out of participation and not because of one disagreement or, what is it you Brits say? bloody row.
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