So, I think in the meantime I agree with it being better to vote for Biden next fall, but...

What then? I'm afraid that for too many Americans "not Trump" is the goal and once they have that everything is back to the corporate stranglehold on politics. What's the game plan in the long run? Aside from the obvious and just moving en masse to the Netherlands. — Benkei

What exactly do you want from the politicians we elect, Benkei?

Do you (we) want them to do what the people want?

That seems to be the demand I hear most often.

How in hell can any human possibly do what the American people want?

How can anyone even think that is possible?

Could you...if given free rein? Suppose you were elected DICTATOR for life...could you "do what the American people want?"

I certainly couldn't! I cannot even imagine anyone who could.

Roughly half the people in America want something that is almost diametrically opposed, and irreconcilable, with what the other half wants!

(By the way: I doubt anyone, anywhere...could get the politicians of their nation to do what "the people" of their nation "want."

Wants are not needs and unless needs are met first there is no want. There is death.

States do/did address some of the diversity/polarity of desire. You can dress like a clown, act like a dog, and speak ill of anything and everything that was once important in a state that has, and I don't want to name any, certain political/social views as widespread and normal. If you don't like it, you can move to another state. Maybe in this state you are expected to dress well, behave well, speak politely, and honor spirituality/Godly pursuits. Both societies being ingrained and widespread enough where each is the respective norm and those outside of it will not be liked or shunned. And so you can move to a different state more accommodating to whatever society is ideal to you.

Naturally the laws are the same. Anyone can live anywhere and be afforded equal opportunity. But shouldn't expect that localized society to change to accommodate their desires when there are other locations that can.

How I see America is...

The revolutionary war was a mistake; taking power from an apt government, and giving it to a young, inexperienced one(forgetting how much money was wasted and how much world control was lost to stay on topic).

Had the revolutionary war not happened, and America belonged to England, all things would be much different today; we wouldn't have enslaved Africans, a lot of unecessary wars wouldn't have happened, propaganda outlets like CNN wouldn't exist.

(like the film Alien, the children killed the good mother and ran a mess).

Unfortunately it did happen...

The American Government is still far from mature and without losing themselves in political egoism, or socially-accepted corruption by propping up Mr Trump, they are actually fixing some problems.

I'd prefer a different leader who's apt in the same sort of policy.

As said, though I don't care about American politics, Biden will be a problem for them.

He is an image and policy much like the previous, young minded leaders.

America doesn't want war with Russia, it'a a stupid war. Trump tries to avert this war and struggles under his people's perversity.

They don't really want war with any super power, but Biden's luck is likely drawing both Russia and China.

I trust, and advise you to, when Trump says 'China is America's enemy', and that Biden's pally attitude is dangerous.

If they could remove Russia from the equation, is that not a good thing? Is the democratic idealogy too dangerous?

Biden's latest joke is 'reverse all that Trump's done' - followed by immaturity - 'his coronovirus policies were bad - ALL OF IT'S BAD'.

So America lost my loyalty, it's too stupid. I even snicker at the fact Biden may get elected and the whole country falls out. If Trump gets another term, I'll perhaps show some interest. I'm bored of this immaturity.

Foreword

What's good about Biden's policies?

What's wrong about Trump(other than funny looks)?

It's not the man you want in charge, it's the policy. Why would you vote Biden?

Wants are not needs and unless needs are met first there is no want. There is death. — Outlander

Okay.

So...so let's change the question from "if elected DICTATOR for life, do you think you could do what the American people WANT" to "if elected DICTATOR for life...do you think you could do what the American people NEED?"

In fact, do you think you could even determine what their "needs" are...without asking?

And do you suppose there would be a huge difference between what our fractured society deems to be "needs" and what it deems to be "wants?"

My point was that politicians are in a near impossible position.

Do you disagree?

Your whole post has rather little to do with my question does it? Or are you one of those never - Trumpers and that's the depth of your political positions? As far as I'm concerned never-Trumpets deserve Trump as much as the people actually voting for him.

And I don't know what I've said that makes you attribute a children's concept of politics to me where politicians do what I say. Bit of a strawman right there. I get you're old and you think I'm young but give me a break.

It's not about politicians doing what I want, it's about having decent representation on my behalf by those who I'd vote for. So that means a system with meaningful choices and not

Option a:
laissez-faire capitalism, minimum government, corporate interest and

Option b:
corporate capitalism, technocratic "let's not get any shit done because the status quo needs to be protected", corporate interest

as the only two available turd sandwiches.

Surely there's some aspect of life in the Netherlands that calls for a revolutionary change.

And yet year after year you roost on the status quo. Why?

I asked a question, Benkei.

What would you do if you were able to DICTATE what could be done?

If you would put that out there, you would see that you would only satisfy about half the people...because half the people would disagree with you about getting intense orgasms each day.

That is the problem politicians face. There is no way to satisfy the electorate.

That is my point.

Again, that is in no way, shape or form a sensible reaction to my original question and a silly proposition so removed from reality it's totally useless to entertain. If I could dictate everybody would be rich I'm sure I'd get a 99% approval rating.

It's quite easy to start a new political party and influence Dutch politics. It happens almost every election. Some parties last, others don't. In general we see other parties adapt to, what usually start as, one issue parties. Last time I voted for the party pushing doughnut economy.

Benkei
2.9k
↪Frank Apisa Again, that is in no way, shape or form a sensible reaction to my original question and a silly proposition so removed from reality it's totally useless to entertain. If I could dictate everybody would be rich I'm sure I'd get a 99% approval rating. — Benkei

What the heck are you talking about, Benkei?

You originally said, "So, I think in the meantime I agree with it being better to vote for Biden next fall, but...

What then? I'm afraid that for too many Americans "not Trump" is the goal and once they have that everything is back to the corporate stranglehold on politics. What's the game plan in the long run? Aside from the obvious and just moving en masse to the Netherlands."

I am just trying to find out what you think should happen.

What should the politicians do that will YOU happy?

What is the "long run game plan for America" that YOU see as the proper one...the best one for America or for the world?

You seem to be complaining about what is going on...but what is YOUR solution?

That is all I am trying to do. I have no idea of why you think that question to be "removed from reality" and "useless to entertain."

Or.. creepy Yoda... ? — Baden

:nerd: ha! (But please don’t start a meme duel that can have no winner, lol. Now excuse me while i search dankmeme.com...)

What they need? Sure. Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness.

Freedom of speech, and the rest. And the reasonable assurance all of the aforementioned will be protected.

A person is a person. In such a diverse nation especially there is no 'title' or 'nationality' to consider. What someone would 'need' here would be no different than what someone needs anywhere.

Discernment between needs and wants is a non-issue. Not to say there aren't unique, circumstantial needs as far as societies go from country to country. It comes down to reasonable belief someone will either maintain or perhaps even improve the ways that one has become accustomed to. And address grievances. Not much more to it then that. Once the needs are addressed, the wants that are independent of necessity can be focused on. The greater the claims the higher the chance you'll be favorable. Unforrunately or not it pragmatically comes down to ensuring the majority is taken care of and content enough to continue to participate first.

As far as politicians being in an impossible position. Depends on concern and commitment. With none, especially if one has made sufficient amounts of money, they likely will either continue to pursue or at minimum work to keep up appearances they are attempting to, enact the laws and will of their constituency that elected them. If they do however... probably. Not impossible. Just atrociously agonizing. Actually, not entirely. They are likely duly elected representatives who ran on ideas they presumably believed and whatever majority electorate that ran with or voted for them would continue to support and admire them even (or sometimes especially) on failure. Essentially all they have to do is ensure their voting majority is satisfied enough either by action or attempt of action. There is no "king", other than the satisfied and socially/politically active/involved citizen.

So, I think in the meantime I agree with it being better to vote for Biden next fall, but... — Benkei

There... was that so hard? :grin:

What then? I'm afraid that for too many Americans "not Trump" is the goal and once they have that everything is back to the corporate stranglehold on politics. What's the game plan in the long run? Aside from the obvious and just moving en masse to the Netherlands. — Benkei

But seriously... Yes, I agree that the Clinton-Obama-Biden status quo has holes so big you could sail a corona cruise ship through it while still getting a tan. That’s why Bernie came within sprinting distance of the nomination, despite the trenches dug in front of him by the DNC. To be speculative, in the USA now there seems to be a battle going on that is on the edge of subconsciousness. A struggle between those that want to continue to ramp up the American Empire, and those that want the USA to be an accountable and functioning world citizen country. Thanks for your mention of the doughnut economic model. At first I thought it was a program of breakfast pastries for all, but there is sound thinking behind it, somewhat akin to the Green New Deal in general. Who knew those ancient Taoists and Buddhists had a clue with that balanced Golden Mean stuff? They didn’t even have the Internet! Must have been a lucky guess, lol.

Which goes back to the idea of the US empire. Any possible limits imposed on Empire-think just simply don’t compute to its adherents. Bigger! Faster! More! Conquer the earth and all its people! It’s Darwinian science people! (At least I imagine it is... the school textbooks ripped out the theory of evolution).

(Oh BTW, I would like to move to the Netherlands. How’s the immigration/refugee policy there for unskilled Americans who like to play loud heavy metal, and think masks are for the weak? :joke: )

More ranting. It seems some people did get the question so it's clearly you being obstinate. Enjoy that. Alone.

To anyone who gives as much grief to politicians as someone like you, I simply ask, "What would you do better...and why the hell aren't you doing it?"

I never get a really decent answer. Mostly the answers show that the person is too lazy to go through the work needed to get to a position of responsibility...let alone actually take responsibility.

I am asking you, Outlander, courteously as possible: What would you do better...and why are you not doing it?

It's quite easy to start a new political party and influence Dutch politics. It happens almost every election. Some parties last, others don't. In general we see other parties adapt to, what usually start as, one issue parties. Last time I voted for the party pushing doughnut economy. — Benkei

What's the main thing about life in the Netherlands that needs to change?

Benkei
2.9k
↪Frank Apisa More ranting. It seems some people did get the question so it's clearly you being obstinate. Enjoy that. Alone. — Benkei

Not sure if you are an American or not, so this applies to wherever you live:

What would you do better...and why are you not doing it?

Ah, yeah. Dutch.

Okay...apply it over there.

More random Biden and 2020 USA election thoughts...

1. Two questions: Who do you think Biden WILL pick for VP nominee? And who do you WANT as VP?

Personally, I would love to see Elizabeth Warren as VP. At first, I was somewhat bitter about Bernie Sanders not getting the nomination, and I wondered about Warren’s “commitment to the cause”, or whatever. But now viewing in “pragmatic mode”, one imagines that she could provide about as much progressive thinking as Biden could handle, lol. (And as much as the DNC would approve of. She would have to compromise, and seems flexible but firm in her ideas IMHO). As for who Biden will end up picking, he might be leaning toward Kamala Harris. Admittedly, she does provide some balance to Biden, being a younger (though very experienced) black woman on the west coast who might possibly be more of a “team player” who isn’t as difficult to predict (or reign in, lol) as Warren, who seems to generate policy ideas even in her sleep. (But that’s why I like her).

2. Who believes the election process needs a severe overhaul? I do. The whole Electoral College process of “the winner takes all” completely encourages the current two-party system. Coincidence? Hmm... Lol. I’d like to see something like the primary voting method, where once over a certain minimum, the votes are divided proportionally. Not an easy task to reform the election process. And sure to generate at least a dozen different positions on every proposal. (Can’t please everybody. Or anybody, sometimes). But IMHO, it is an overhaul long overdue.

Radical idea: allow multiple candidates from a particular party to run in the general Presidential election. To counteract the likelihood of “splitting the vote”, award the winner of each party all the votes for anyone running in that party. For instance in the upcoming election, both Biden and Sanders would run as Democrats against Trump (and against anyone else who wanted to run as a Republican. And any other parties, too). On a per state level, whoever got more votes would take the state. If Biden won Florida, but Bernie won more states overall, then Bernie Sanders would get Florida and the other “Biden states”.

Now, it would be nice IMHO to combine this radical idea with the above-mentioned Electoral College reform. However, I’m not exactly holding my breath.

3. Casualty calculus. As a theoretical and possibly pragmatic exercise, let us imagine the difference between the actual number of USA corona virus deaths under the Trump administration, and the imagined or estimated number of deaths that would have occurred under the Obama/Biden years, assuming the same general circumstances. Definitely NOT hard proof of anything. But it may give one pause...

4. If I would have known when starting this thread that it would have gotten so contentious and well... political, then I would have discussed something more innocuous. Like global warming. :sweat:

It was kind of hard. The cultural background of having a pluralistic political system makes it hard to get around voting for someone you think is total shit just so someone worse doesn't get into office. A few posts before I mentioned I never voted against someone. I have taken voting more seriously in years populism was rising but I still voted for what I wanted and not strategically.

Oh BTW, I would like to move to the Netherlands. How’s the immigration/refugee policy there for unskilled Americans who like to play loud heavy metal, and think masks are for the weak? — 0 thru 9

You're not obliged to wear a mask except in public transport and nobody cares about your hobbies. :yum:

Unskilled American? How about your English language skill? It's not in short supply here but tutoring could be a low entry job for most native speakers.

Answer to your first question: I would like to see Kamala Harris chosen.

Partly for the reasons you listed, 0...but also because I think the traditional role of the VP nominee is to do some serious ass-kicking while the top of the ticket sticks with the high ground. (Except for Trump, who lives in the sewers.) Kamala can kick ass with the best of 'em. She will make Trump's VP (I suspect it will not be Pence) look like a chump...and will lash out at Trump for all the mistakes he will make.

Hmmmm... Lots of stuff my fellow Dutchmen aren't ready for yet. Land tax, death tax, higher corporate taxes, mandatory transfer of shares to employees over time to position our society to be resilient when robots and AI really take over most jobs, more on the environment, crushing the tax evasion schemes made available through the Netherlands, socialising critical infrastructure (cable networks, pipelines, electricity, trains, roads). I could go on...

For now I'm focusing on circular economies. We prove it works, the rest will follow and the planet is saved.

NYT says he's leaning toward Warren.

Interesting. :up:

It was kind of hard. The cultural background of having a pluralistic political system makes it hard to get around voting for someone you think is total shit just so someone worse doesn't get into office. A few posts before I mentioned I never voted against someone. I have taken voting more seriously in years populism was rising but I still voted for what I wanted and not strategically. — Benkei

Well, one would be fortunate to live within such a system. I’m envious, totally green jello, lol. I imagine that there is abusive / dysfunctional family dynamic among the US voters. I think loyalty / imprinting / bonding with one’s family, community, and country is instinctual, or almost so. It’s very traumatic to break apart from that, and one generally doesn’t do so for a lark. Few relish being thought of as a traitor or ungrateful or whatever. How does one take control of a sinking ship controlled by armed robotic people? Mutiny on the Titanic Death Star.

You're not obliged to wear a mask except in public transport and nobody cares about your hobbies. :yum:

Unskilled American? How about your English language skill? It's not in short supply here but tutoring could be a low entry job for most native speakers. — Benkei

Cool! Just made plane reservations... :lol: I don’t speak English, but I speak American very bitchingly! As for a job, I was just kind of hoping to live off of public welfare. (just kidding).

Answer to your first question: I would like to see Kamala Harris chosen.

Partly for the reasons you listed, 0...but also because I think the traditional role of the VP nominee is to do some serious ass-kicking while the top of the ticket sticks with the high ground. (Except for Trump, who lives in the sewers.) Kamala can kick ass with the best of 'em. She will make Trump's VP (I suspect it will not be Pence) look like a chump...and will lash out at Trump for all the mistakes he will make. — Frank Apisa

Interesting! Personally, I could live with the choice of Harris. (Though Joe hasn’t called me yet to get my thoughts on the issue.) You think DT will drop Pence as VP? Could be... Who might the GOP VP nominee be then, one wonders? Someone even more obedient? Cuter? A woman to match up strategically with Biden’s choice?

As a possibly humorous aside... When I hear someone say that it is morally wrong (or weak or whatever) to vote for either candidate of the two dinosaur political parties (which I’m no fan of, FWIW), I think of a scenario where a few people are driving around late at night. They realize that they are hungry, and luckily find an open fast food drive-through. When ordering the food, someone pipes up to the brightly colored clown-shaped intercom, “I’ll have the rack of lamb with mint sauce! What wine would you recommend with that?” :snicker:

Someone "like me"? Have we met? Lol. I post counterarguments here often for little more reason than to do so. Well.. perhaps to learn more of course. And perhaps to aid others I can relate to.

That said before continuing please, spare no courtesy or manners. Myself and others here would assuredly like to know your truest and deepest essence in engaging opposing views.

Jesus Christ, this recent interview with Charlamagne the God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOIFs_SryHI

If you don't support me "then you ain't black." He also refers to the interviewer as "man" 3 times and ends the interview with "see ya later pal." Do you think he'd be addressing a white crowd like this? Particularly a wealthy white crowd? It's just strange to me.

I'll go ahead and be "reprehensible." It's the fact that you think it's your right to judge that keeps me on the sidelines. You all think you're the judge, jury, and executioner. But it's your funeral. — neonspectraltoast

What a silly argument. It's your funeral, too. So you're willing to shoot yourself in the foot because some people online are mean and judgmental? Who cares about that? There's only one thing that matters: are they right? If it's pure name-calling, just ignore them. If they're giving facts and evidence and also being cantankerous, then ignore the latter and look at the facts.

Speaking for myself: I don't think you're reprehensible. I don't think people voting for Trump are evil, I don't think people voting third party are evil, etc. I certainly understand their frustration and wholeheartedly agree that Biden is a very weak candidate indeed. I say that those voting third party or not voting, when their stated goals are the same as mine, are assisting Trump in getting re-elected. I don't think it's evil or reprehensible, I just think it's an easily demonstrable mistake.

The entire argument hinges on what your goals are. The example I always use is climate change. If you profess to care about this issue, then it follows you should vote Biden. Why? Because when you look at the policies of Trump compared to what Biden is proposing or what Obama did, it's clear which is better for the environment. That's not saying much, given Trump's policies, but it's at least "better."

So it follows for other policies as well. I reject that Biden and Trump are the same person with the same policies, and I reject that not voting or voting third party does any good whatsoever to change the DNC -- there's no evidence for that. I also reject the short-term argument, which completely ignores the very small window we have for addressing the climate crisis, and the re-shaping of the judiciary (which will have effects that will be felt for generations).