Trump is corruption personified. He has done more damage to the Republic and its institutions than all of our foreign enemies combined.

The only thing in the nation worse than Trump are his supporters.

Maybe claims for and against Trump based on what he has or hasn't done should be backed up with linked citations, not that anyone would believe any of them.

What a remarkably stupid and ignorant remark. I forget what a bottom dweller you are, and how low you so easily go. But let's see. Hmm. You are aware that early in his administration he without notice blocked entry of all sorts of people into the US who were otherwise according to US completely entitled to enter?

These are the “injuries” you’re talking about? In other words, not injuries. Sorry, but these policies were a first step towards re-establishing control over America’s borders and national security.

M_oscow
A_ss(et)monkey
G_overns
A_merica

:mask:

The only thing in the nation worse than Trump are his supporters. — Frank Apisa

:100: Amen, brother!

These are the “injuries” you’re talking about? — NOS4A2

These and many more. is that your game? You say you're "not aware." But you have just proved you're a liar. You are aware, but you rationalized the hurting. And as to what he did and why, the method was - is - indefensible.

Either you’re a liar or you don’t know what injury means. Was it your fee-fees that we’re injured and hurt?

:up:

Definition of injury
1: hurt, damage, or loss sustained
2a: an act that damages or hurts : WRONG
2b: violation of another's rights for which the law allows an action to recover damages

I de.idn’t criticize what Biden said on the phone. I simply posted the leaked call and quoted how Zelensky described it. I also predicted how it might be used by the Trump campaign. I’m not here to convince you what to think of it

This is the sort of anti-Trump fabulism I’m talking about. It leads to the kind of rhetoric that Claas Relotius would win awards for. — NOS4A2

I didn't word myself properly. You have previously criticized Biden for the things he was accused of saying or had admitted to having said to Ukrainian officials, the phone call you recently posted being an example (or the example) of what we have talked about before.

e.g. here where you directly accused Biden of being corrupt, and in context is clearly a reference to alleged interference with an investigation into Burisma. Or here where you say it looks bad for Biden to threaten withholding aid.

But this is by-the-by. My point still stands that it is perfectly appropriate to criticize the things people say and open an investigation in light of them, as they can be indicative of some underlying unjust behaviour (which is what people care about, not just the words themselves). That's true for Biden and it's true for Trump, so why is it that you have repeatedly said that an investigation into Biden is warranted on the basis of things he allegedly said but then claim that an investigation into Trump isn't warranted on the basis of things he allegedly said and is actually just an anti-Trump hoax?

An investigation into Biden is warranted because his son was on the board of a corrupt Ukrainian energy company at the same time his father was vice-president and point man in Ukraine. The US had just finished helping far right fascists topple the government. Suddenly Biden’s crackhead son is getting lucrative positions at a corrupt Ukrainian energy company. The same has allegedly happened in China.

None of this is even similar to what Trump was investigated and impeached for.

None of this is even similar to what Trump was investigated and impeached for. — NOS4A2

There is more than one reason to warrant an investigation and so this is a non sequitur. In the case of Trump there was an official whistleblower complaint that the independent Inspector General deemed to be an urgent concern, and so Congress would have been remiss to do nothing given its Constitutional duty of oversight. And given that the Government Accountability Office concluded that the Trump administration broke the law in withholding aid, there was substance to the complaint and the investigation was warranted after all.

:100: Amen, brother! — 180 Proof

:up:

An investigation into Biden is warranted because his son was on the board of a corrupt Ukrainian energy company at the same time his father was vice-president and point man in Ukraine. The US had just finished helping far right fascists topple the government. Suddenly Biden’s crackhead son is getting lucrative positions at a corrupt Ukrainian energy company. The same has allegedly happened in China. — NOS4A2

If you're suggesting a criminal investigation is warranted, then you need to explain what crime Hunter or Joe has committed. Or is it that you're just hoping there's a fishing expedition to try and stir up some political dirt?

. The US had just finished helping far right fascists topple the government. — NOS4A2

Ah YESS, Tovarich NOS4A2!

Here's those evil US stooges, the far right fascists with their evident neonazi insignia and symbols trying to topple their government all because of the US of A:




All nazi stooges of the US! No, correct that tovarich NOS, Biden stooges!


(Trump wants to give a kiss, just one little kiss...)

Oh look, it’s John McCain with Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the Svoboda party.



Why is he dining with them?



Wait a minute, is that Victoria Nuland with the same man?



But they and their partners in the Right Sector had nothing to do with the Maidan protest and violence, nor did they find themselves in government positions, or as governors in the new government immediately after toppling the democratically-elected president, right kamerad ssu?

A senate probe will suffice. I suppose Ukraine should want to know why the previous American administration was meddling in their politics, as well.

Who is this guy, NOS4A2?



Why even those who started a secession from Ukraine and a civil war against Kiev didn't want him back from where he came? He's still in Russia I guess.

But you aren't interested in the real events, just simply eager to reurgitate the old Kremilin line pushed during the crisis that argued right there and then that the whole Maidan revolt was a US lead coup acted by neonazis. Hence you reurgitate the narrative promoted by a country which annexed Crimea and instigated the Ukrainian civil war by backing (and creating) the Donbas rebels. Yeah, that of course is the credible source for everything NOS4A2 believes in.

But let's just look at how stupid your this idea is. Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the Svoboda party, didn't get a cabinet position in the first administration after the ouster of Yanukovich and got a whopping 1,16% of the votes in the 2014 Presidential elections. And of course the important person in the photos above is Arseniy Yatsenyuk who was then the prime minister... from late February to mid April 2014. The second Yatsenyuk government that lasted until 2016 was without the Svoboda Party. And otherwise would be needless to say, but just to get things correct, economist Yatsenyuk wasn't from the far right. But yes, they indeed met with Americans. We of course have tapes from the Russian intelligence services of US diplomats talking about what politicians they'll back up, so BRAVO again for the US for the professionalism they showed there!

What you utterly fail to grasp is that just like with Serbia (where the US really helped to ouster Milosevic, first with bombs, then with State Department assistance, not the CIA), the US is just one actor which typically very poorly plays it's cards as there isn't any long term thinking in the US. Milosevic was ousted and Serbia remains a close ally of... Russia. (The bombing of the country might have something to do with it, I guess.)

Nope, you believe the incredible line that it was the US that planned, executed a coup by creating an astroturf movement in Ukraine...or in your words: "helped far right fascists topple the government". As if Ukraine wouldn't have a history of corrupt administration being thrown over. It both tells about ignorance about Ukraine and the focus on a politically charged narrative which doesn't see the forest from the trees, and only some specific trees I should add. (And quite insulting to Ukrainians just at to say that Trump supporters are neonazis, because some supporters are indeed neonazis.)

A senate probe will suffice. I suppose Ukraine should want to know why the previous American administration was meddling in their politics, as well. — NOS4A2

That's the nature of our political system, but it's unfortunate that it has sunk that low. It's particularly sad that Trump slings this kind of mud on a near daily basis (consider his proclaiming that Joe Scarborough should be investigated for the accidental death of Lori Klausutis).

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05/andrew-sullivan-with-trump-the-pathology-is-the-point.html

This article is a mostly useless rehashing of Trump's catastrophic uselessness - Trump's shitfuckerry is not a point open to debate - but it does end on a point well worth making:

"The key thing, however, is that none of this seems to matter to the supporters of the president. For them, the pathology seems to be the point. It is precisely Trump’s refusal to acknowledge reality that they thrill to — because it offends and upsets the people they hate (i.e., city dwellers, the educated, and the media). The more Trump brazenly lies, the more Republicans support him. The more incoherent he is, the more insistent they are. Bit by bit, they have been co-opted by Trump into a series of cascading and contradicting lies, and they are not going to give up now — even when they are being treated for COVID-19 in hospital".

One of the points of takeaway being that it's a waste of energy to to think that pointing out Trump numerous lies, failings, and reality-warping is of much strategic use. If for almost 3 years it has not worked, it's not going to magically start working anytime soon. This shit about Ukraine is an energy sink. John McCain was a war criminal and fuckbag and the world was made a better place the moment he stopped breathing. Time is better spent than trying to defend a ratfuck like him.

It was actually sourcing a controversial French documentary, not that you’d care to be accurate. I don’t know Russian. Watch it if you wish.



Of course Tyahnybok didn’t get a position. In Pyatt and Nuland’s leaked phone call, Nuland said he should be kept on the outside. Who did they prefer? Yatsenyuk. The fascists were fine with impunity.

I think you’re wrong to downplay American meddling in Ukraine and the failure of the previous administration’s push for regime change there. American officials stood on stages Shaking hands with fascists while addressing Maidan protesters, cheering for their success against the democratically-elected president, and pushing to install their favorite politicians. Imagine if someone did that in your country.

It's particularly sad that Trump slings this kind of mud on a near daily basis

They sling it at him. They deserve it.

He started it!

Whatever anyone might say about Donald Trump it cannot be denied that his greatest contribution will be remembered and celebrated all through American history as having been the man who prevented Hillary Clinton from soiling the White House anew.

I think your assessment of the role the U.S. played in overthrowing one government and shoeing in a Fascist one is an understatement.

Trump wasn't trying to kiss anyone. He was speaking French. "Bonjooour!"

Whatever anyone might say about Donald Trump it cannot be denied that his greatest contribution will be remembered and celebrated all through American history as having been the man who prevented Hillary Clinton from soiling the White House anew. — Hot Potato

Given that a Clinton presidency would be better than a Trump presidency, Trump's greatest achievement is a net loss.

Leaders of Democratic nations are meant to serve their respective population. Trump is a President who makes as many decisions as is feasibly possible. Hillary Clinton doesn’t have adequate intelligence to make any decisions so she allows others to do it for her. Who are they serving and who do you (or I) think they should serve?

Hilary is far more intelligent than Trump. Having expert advisors is a good thing. Trump’s “many decisions” are almost always the wrong ones. Trump serves his own self interest, not the people.

I think you’re wrong to downplay American meddling in Ukraine and the failure of the previous administration’s push for regime change there. — NOS4A2

The US has a policy for regime change in Iran. Both the US and the EU were OK with Yanukovich before. And Yanukovich had been negotiating a free trade agreement with the EU since 2012. What happened?




What you are leaving out is that the demonstrations started because the pressure that Putin put to Yanukovich was the real powder keg here.

Following talks between the Russian and Ukrainian prime ministers, a government decree curtly suspended preparations for the signing of a trade pact and political association agreement between Ukraine and the EU at a summit next week in Lithuania.

The pact has been years in the making and was to have been the centrepiece of Lithuania's current rotating presidency of the EU.

Senior EU officials conceded there would be no signing in Vilnius, the Lithuanian capital. Instead, the Ukrainian government announced that it was "renewing dialogue" with Moscow on trade and economic matters and with the Kremlin's embryonic rival to the EU, the Eurasian customs union.

Putin offered to lend 15 bn dollars to Ukraine and to give cheaper oil, and even after that the EU was open for a trade deal. As a Finn I can well understand how difficult this is when Russia puts pressure on a country when it see's the country being under it's sphere of influence. For my country it was a tight-rope act to negotiate a trade deal with the EEC when we had the Soviet Union as a neighbor.

Then to what you utterly fail to grasp: You see, there is a huge difference in being the instigator of a regime change or reacting to political events in a country. Countries do try to influence each other: that's why they have diplomats. And Great Powers and Superpowers are even more brazen what they do. The protests started IN NOVEMBER 2013 right after Yanukovich walked out of the deal with a demonstration organized by Yatsenyuk. (So what do you know, Americans choose to back one of the founders of the movement) McCain went there to show support in DECEMBER 2013. The Nuland tapes were recorded in JANUARY 28th of 2014.

If those Nuland tapes would have been recorded prior to the demonstrations then yes, it would be obvious that the US would have plotted a regime change and created an astroturf demonstration. Yet in January the Maidan revolution was well under way, hence the US diplomats were reacting to current events.

Then the second thing is that there is truly a difference on giving support to some political actors and occupying and annexing a part of a country (even if the majority of the people there were OK with it) and then starting a war inside the country and making threats of straight forward invasion. The occupation and later annexation was one of the most brilliant military operations ever, that I have to say. Talk about total strategic surprise.

Trump wasn't trying to kiss anyone. He was speaking French. "Bonjooour!" — Hot Potato

Well, that's your view of it. :grin: Trump you see has a habit of awkward kissing attempts. But hey, he likes Pence and Putin!