Let's take the example of instantaneous distant communication, the old desire since the world:
Maximum goal: telepathic communication, maybe even at the level of senses and emotions. — Eugen

With the amount of research into quantum entanglement going on there is a possibility of this happening one day. But I doubt that many of us will be around to enjoy it. But them again our grandfathers never even imagined that they could have a little box in their pocket that would let them talk to anyone around the world. And quite a few of them are going just that.

Will technological evolution make us have new desires that our current brain cannot imagine? — Eugen

When you got a wireless phone for your house did you not wish for a phone that you could walk around anywhere with, when you got a cell did you not want to talk to it to instead of typing on those little keys, and then one that you could see the other person on. That is how innovation works.

For every boundary that humankind crosses the will be new ones further ahead. That means there will be need for new technology. Everywhere humans go they will make discoveries that will set in motion new ways of thinking thus leading to new inventions.

When you got a wireless phone for your house did you not wish for a phone that you could walk around anywhere with, when you got a cell did you not want to talk to it to instead of typing on those little keys, and then one that you could see the other person on. That is how innovation works. — Sir2u

I don't see it that way. The cell-phone was just a step ahead towards pre-existing goal: to communicate with others from distance wherever you are. Nothing new in this.

I don't see it that way. The cell-phone was just a step ahead towards pre-existing goal: to communicate with others from distance wherever you are. Nothing new in this. — Eugen

For something to have been a desire, you would first have to imagined it to be possible. I doubt that stone age people even gave it a thought, so it cannot have been an ancient desire.

Now I totally disagree! Not only your statement does not follow a logical path, but there's an abundance of evidence that ideas as communicate with other people from distance instantly, traveling to parallel worlds, virtual reality, and many others are very old.
In fact, I truly believe they are simply instinctive. Let's take the need of communication because you've mention it. Imagine a woman in a cave being attacked by a cheetah while her male partner is hunting far away. Of course she would wish not only to communicate instantly and ask for help, but also for his husband to be there instantly (teleportation).

In fact, I truly believe they are simply instinctive. — Eugen

Ask some old people if they ever imagined being able to talk to someone across the other side of the world from a tiny box in their pocket. I am only in my mid 60's, but as a kid I never even gave it a thought never mind desiring it.

They might have dreamed about being able to talk to someone that lived a long way from them, but I doubt that desire played much of a part of their dreams until after they had already imagined doing it.

Let's take the need of communication because you've mention it. Imagine a woman in a cave being attacked by a cheetah while her male partner is hunting far away. Of course she would wish not only to communicate instantly and ask for help, but also for his husband to be there instantly (teleportation). — Eugen

You even say so here yourself, the person imagines the act and then desires it.

Please name one thing that you can desire without imagining it first.

:lol: I hate farcehook but there are times when it has its use.
https://www.facebook.com/MetroPR/videos/386605718891355/

:rofl:
Imagination, desire, invention. In that order.

Please name one thing that you can desire without imagining it first. — Sir2u

The Quottle. I can't imagine it but desire it. Let desire shape its form.

The Quottle. I can't imagine it but desire it. — Nils Loc

Hang around long enough.

https://www.owler.com/company/quottle
https://github.com/RubenKuilder/quottle

There you go.

Usually when unknown things are part of your imagination they are nameless. Is it really possible to put a name on something you do not know. If you already have a name for something, must that object already exist in some form. If it exists only in your imagination then you should be capable of describing it to us. could you try doing that please. What does it look like, what is its purpose, what is it used for, how do you use it, is there a reason for its existence?
What motivates you to desire it, are you hungry, randy, do you think that it will fulfill any of your other basic needs? Will it calm you anxiety or temper your spirit for a battle forthcoming?

If it is desired then there has to be a motivation for desiring it, even if it is so that you can be one up on your neighbor, but them you would have to explain why your neighbor had or wanted one.

It is impossible to desire something without being able to imagine it.

It is impossible to desire something without being able to imagine it. — Sir2u

Unless of course you are seeing what you desire and there is no need to imagine it.

There must be some animals that still desire despite a complete lack of imagination.

A quottle is a grain of something between salt and sugar. So take what I say with a quottle.

Unless of course you are seeing what you desire and there is no need to imagine it. — Nils Loc

So then either it is a part of nature and not part of the discussion on the evolution of technology or someone as already imagined it and invented it.

There must be some animals that still desire despite a complete lack of imagination. — Nils Loc

My cats have lots of desires, but I seriously doubt that any of them have imagined having a remote control door to get into the house. Thus, unless I give them one they will never invent it.

I didn't say people would imagine the shape of the technology (eg. a box containing apps), I said that in the end, the cellphone is nothing more than a tool satisfying the desire to communicate from long distances, and that is a very old desire.
Name me one technology that serves directly or indirectly to a desire that wasn't there already.

You even say so here yourself, the person imagines the act and then desires it.

Please name one thing that you can desire without imagining it first. — Sir2u

Well... the desire of surviving the cheetah attack. I believe the survival instinct obviously comes first, so in my example the desire comes first, not the imagination. Therefore, it's exactly vice-versa the way you said.
But even if you were right, that wouldn't change much the fact that the ideas that lie at the base of absolutely 100% of today's technologies are old as hell.

I believe desires always come first, because they're a matter of instinct, but it is also irrelevant for my question. So I think you are right.

It is impossible to desire something without being able to imagine it. — Sir2u

No man, it isn't. When I was a kid I have a sexual desire for a girl in my class in the form of erection, but I had no idea what sex was and how it was supposed to be made.
Sorry to give you this maybe inappropriate example, but it is obvious that in the case of biological creatures like humans, instincts come first and in many cases, instinct = desire.

My cats have lots of desires, but I seriously doubt that any of them have imagined having a remote control door to get into the house. Thus, unless I give them one they will never invent it. — Sir2u

The desire of human being to have his door/gate opened without the effort of the owner is OLD AS HECK!!! Come on dude, really? Of course King Richard didn't imagine a remote control, but the desire of having his gate opened was there.
Desire - ...... - Invention

Again, name me ONE technology that serves directly or indirectly to a desire that wasn't there already.

Well... the desire of surviving the cheetah attack. I believe the survival instinct obviously comes first, so in my example the desire comes first, not the imagination. Therefore, it's exactly vice-versa the way you said. — Eugen

The instinct to survive and the idea to call someone from far away are two separate things. Instinct would say fight or run, or maybe scream. The scream is not a call for help, but a reaction to the situation, one does not think that just by screaming help would come. Then the third option is imagined, call for help. It would not be a big step to then imagine calling to someone far away.

But even if you were right, that wouldn't change much the fact that the ideas that lie at the base of absolutely 100% of today's technologies are old as hell. — Eugen

Who said they were not? I don't think that this has even been part of the discussion.

No man, it isn't. When I was a kid I have a sexual desire for a girl in my class in the form of erection, but I had no idea what sex was and how it was supposed to be made. — Eugen

So as soon as this poor young lady appeared you got a hard on and you had no idea why? Of course your body has its own reactions to situations in which it finds itself, in this case a reaction to pheromones in the air. But that was your body reacting , not you. Unless of course you want to admit that you are nothing more that a zombie reacting to the environment without the capability to think. Along the same lines do you desire to sweat when you get hot? No right it just happens.
Now if you start to think about how well her blouse is filled and get a hard on, then it is the imagination that is fueling the desire.

Sorry to give you this maybe inappropriate example, but it is obvious that in the case of biological creatures like humans, instincts come first and in many cases, instinct = desire. — Eugen

No idea why the mention a perfectly normal function of the human body would be inappropriate , but whatever. But i really do disagree with you that instinct and desire are always the same thing.

How could you explain wanting(desiring) to visit far away places as instinct? Until less than a couple of hundred years ago few people had traveled more that a few miles from their places of birth, and those that had been motivated to travel afar were mostly considered eccentrics or worse.
The possibility of easy travel has made people imagine going to those places thus creating desire. And no, someone inventing a boat was not a desire to float on water, it was a way to get a job done easier. The desire to work less did not create boats, imaging a way to do that did. And then they imagined what else could be done with a boat, like visiting places that were over river.

The desire of human being to have his door/gate opened without the effort of the owner is OLD AS HECK!!! Come on dude, really? Of course King Richard didn't imagine a remote control, but the desire of having his gate opened was there.
Desire - ...... - Invention — Eugen

Do you really think that King Richard would have put the bloody gate there in the first place if there had not been a way to open it? Do you really think that he would have not put it there if he had not first imagined a way to protect himself from the enemy?
Alright, protecting himself is instinct, but he had to imagine a way to do it or he would not have had the wall to put his bloody get in. The desire to protect himself did not protect him, his imagination created the wall. Where in anyone's instinct is there a wall and gate reaction to being attacked by large groups of enemies?

Again, name me ONE technology that serves directly or indirectly to a desire that wasn't there already. — Eugen

As soon as you give me one that is. But we started talking about desire creating things and now we have moved to direct or indirect responsibility for creating them.

We can say that artificial vaginas that are connected to your computer and from there through the internet to a woman's artificial penis connected to her computer that are used to stimulate sexually both participants are instinctual in the sense that they are born from the human instinct to procreate.
But that would be a bullshit answer. Firstly because there is no procreation involved, secondly because it is based in the instinct to feel pleasure.
How then did anyone get from the instinctive desire(if you insist on calling it that) to feel pleasure to inventing a fake dick and pussy?
Even being motivated by desire to pleasure one's self, there had to be a lot of imagination involved.

But none of this would have been possible if someone had not first come up with the idea to harness and use electricity, so please just explain how desire did that.

Tell us what part of our instinct=desire made it possible to discover electricity.

The instinct to survive and the idea to call someone from far away are two separate things. Instinct would say fight or run, or maybe scream. The scream is not a call for help, but a reaction to the situation, one does not think that just by screaming help would come. Then the third option is imagined, call for help. It would not be a big step to then imagine calling to someone far away. — Sir2u

- Screaming is a reflex and it is totally related to calling for help. I could agree it could have other functions as well, like scaring the animal or provoking mercy, I don't know, but it is definitely related to the instinct of calling for help.

So as soon as this poor young lady appeared you got a hard on and you had no idea why? Of course your body has its own reactions to situations in which it finds itself, in this case a reaction to pheromones in the air. But that was your body reacting , not you. Unless of course you want to admit that you are nothing more that a zombie reacting to the environment without the capability to think. Along the same lines do you desire to sweat when you get hot? No right it just happens.
Now if you start to think about how well her blouse is filled and get a hard on, then it is the imagination that is fueling the desire. — Sir2u

- the body reactions are in fact fabricated by the brain.

How could you explain wanting(desiring) to visit far away places as instinct? Until less than a couple of hundred years ago few people had traveled more that a few miles from their places of birth, and those that had been motivated to travel afar were mostly considered eccentrics or worse.
The possibility of easy travel has made people imagine going to those places thus creating desire. And no, someone inventing a boat was not a desire to float on water, it was a way to get a job done easier. The desire to work less did not create boats, imaging a way to do that did. And then they imagined what else could be done with a boat, like visiting places that were over river. — Sir2u

- This is so ridiculous, sorry to tell you that. People imagined traveling to parallel worlds long before inventing the boat, and this is a scientific fact, not an assumption.
So in your case, the invention of a super space ship comes first, and then you imagine and wish to travel to different universes? It makes no sense. Same as for the boat - they wanted to get from point A to point B, it is exactly the same principle as going from a universe to another. The boat is a tool, a space ship is a tool, they are nothing more than means to satisfy one desire and that is to travel from A to B. Simple. As for those who didn't travel, they did so because of other factors, not because they couldn't desire or imagine doing so.

How could you explain wanting(desiring) to visit far away places as instinct? — Sir2u

- curiosity.

As soon as you give me one that is. But we started talking about desire creating things and now we have moved to direct or indirect responsibility for creating them. — Sir2u

- No my friend, you got it wrong! That was the whole point of the debate, not desire vs imagination vs ideas vs whatever. There is a finite set of ideas/desires (call them as you wish, it is not relevant), for example flying, being immortal, being able to communicate from long distances instantly, to travel to other worlds, to have sex when you want to with whom you desire to, etc., that have determined so far absolutely any technology invented so far. Yes, the technology itself is not predictable in terms of design or properties, but it is from the perspective of purpose. Eg. imagine going back in time and show your smartphone to Ceaser and explained to him that this tool worked on electricity, with the help of the satellites and waves, he wouldn't understand. But if you explained to him that this is a tool that helps you to talk with somebody 1000km away from you instantly, he would be amazed, but he would definitely understand and resonate.

So the issue I have raised in the first place was that after we satisfy all possible desires/ideas on the list that I've mentioned above, what will happen? Will our brain invent others or we will simply stop there?

1. Will technological evolution make us have new desires that our current brain cannot imagine? — Eugen

If we give a wild ape some cake with the certain knowledge that it has never tasted anything like it (cake), do we conclude that the ape potentially has a "new desire" based on the memory of that cake?

Or think about opiates with humans which highjack the pleasure reward system. Prior to trying such drugs can a person really imagine the desire (pain of addiction) or pleasure (super high) it elicits.

Desire usually entails a lack of a previously encountered stimuli and that stimuli having been integrated into habit. The satisfaction in the encounter of such stimuli is somewhat dependent on the severity of the desire for it. For example: someone who is extremely thirsty finds greater satisfaction in drinking water.

I'd say that there are no "new desires" if were limiting the term to the full continuum of whatever the maximum or minimum configurations of pleasure are. However, desire isn't really separate from the object (stimuli). I don't think it really makes sense to speak about objectless desire.

Screaming is a reflex and it is totally related to calling for help. I could agree it could have other functions as well, like scaring the animal or provoking mercy, I don't know, but it is definitely related to the instinct of calling for help. — Eugen

Some evidence of this would be nice, and something more concrete than what you think.

the body reactions are in fact fabricated by the brain. — Eugen

Is that not what I just said? So you imagine her and get a hard on.

This is so ridiculous, sorry to tell you that. People imagined traveling to parallel worlds long before inventing the boat, and this is a scientific fact, not an assumption. — Eugen

So now you believe me, they imagined going to places. That was what made them desire to go there. Them they started imaging how they were going to get there, thus came invention.
Please provide some sort of link to this scientific fact, I am always interested in this stuff.

So in your case, the invention of a super space ship comes first, and then you imagine and wish to travel to different universes? It makes no sense. — Eugen

Where on earth did you get that idea? And you totally missed the point, or have no answer for it.

How could you explain wanting(desiring) to visit far away places as instinct? — Sir2u

Same as for the boat - they wanted to get from point A to point B, it is exactly the same principle as going from a universe to another. — Eugen

So you say that wanting to go from A to B is a desire, something instinctual? Again, I cannot imagine how you are going to explain that.

As for those who didn't travel, they did so because of other factors, not because they couldn't desire or imagine doing so. — Eugen

So now you have to explain how it is possible that all those millions and millions of people throughout time over came this instinct and just stayed at home.

The boat is a tool, a space ship is a tool, they are nothing more than means to satisfy one desire and that is to travel from A to B. Simple. As for those who didn't travel, they did so because of other factors, not because they couldn't desire or imagine doing so. — Eugen

So man desired to go from A to B and built a boat? Would it not be more sensible to say that he saw a log floating in the river and imagine how he could use it to get to the other side and see what was over there? Without seeing the principle of flotation at work I doubt that all of his desires would get him far.

Again, name me ONE technology that serves directly or indirectly to a desire that wasn't there already. — Eugen

A plastic bag. Which of the humans' desires led to that being invented.

Now you answer the question I asked.

Tell us what part of our instinct=desire made it possible to discover electricity. — Sir2u

So the issue I have raised in the first place was that after we satisfy all possible desires/ideas on the list that I've mentioned above, what will happen? Will our brain invent others or we will simply stop there? — Eugen

I am sure that he will imagine something that will awaken new desires in human. By the way, do you think that vanity is an instinct?

Debating imagination vs desire is irrelevant to the topic, and this is the last time I bring arguments. But first things first.

A plastic bag. Which of the humans' desires led to that being invented. — Sir2u

-WRONG EXAMPLE - the concept of bag is old as human and it comes from the desire to carry things efficiently. DESIRE of carrying efficiently - IMAGINE a tool that would be good for it - the TOOL.

Tell us what part of our instinct=desire made it possible to discover electricity. — Sir2u

- Having light all the time? There is ABSOLUTELY no function of electricity that does not serve directly or indirectly to an old desire and you wouldn't be able to name at least one.

I am sure that he will imagine something that will awaken new desires in human. By the way, do you think that vanity is an instinct? — Sir2u

- So far there's nothing new under the sun in terms of new desires. Or you think we just wait for ending the first set of desires and then get to the next one? Vanity comes from evolution.

Now let's go back to your favorite debate:

Some evidence of this would be nice, and something more concrete than what you think. — Sir2u

:
1. https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2015/0716/Why-is-screaming-so-effective-Scientists-explain
2.https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/6ntlln/why_is_screaming_a_reflex_when_frightened/
3. https://www.bustle.com/articles/97928-why-do-we-scream-its-basically-a-survival-mechanism-says-science-so-dont-let-anyone-tell - point 4

Is that not what I just said? So you imagine her and get a hard on. — Sir2u

- No, wrong again! My dick got hard the moment I SAW her without imagining her.

So now you believe me, they imagined going to places. That was what made them desire to go there. Them they started imaging how they were going to get there, thus came invention.
Please provide some sort of link to this scientific fact, I am always interested in this stuff. — Sir2u

- They imagined because they were curious to find out what's up there. Come on man, you can do better than that! The first-moment man saw the sky he asked himself what's up there, and that is curiosity. After that, he started inventing explanations using his imagination. The process is exactly vice-versa.

Imagination is a tool for satisfying our desires. We come from animals, and first of all animals have instincts and desires, not imagination. If you believe I am lying, please provide me with links to these scientific facts. You are the one disapproving something obvious, you should bring proofs.

How could you explain wanting(desiring) to visit far away places as instinct? — Sir2u

- I have already answered - CURIOSITY (instinct).

So you say that wanting to go from A to B is a desire, something instinctual? Again, I cannot imagine how you are going to explain that. — Sir2u

- Well, you should start imagining, because you love imagination and because I am actually capable of explaining to you. Going from A to B could mean get food among many others, and that is definitely embedded in our genes. Curiosity and necessity make you do that. Curiosity helps you to find new information, possibly vital one. You need me to provide you with other scientific proofs on this one or you just trust my word? Ok, I guess you don't take my word for granted so I will show you something nice.

''Curiosity can be seen as an innate quality of many different species. It is common to human beings at all ages from infancy[5] through adulthood,[1] and is easy to observe in many other animal species; these include apes, cats, and rodents.[2] Early definitions cite curiosity as a motivated desire for information.[6] This motivational desire has been said to stem from a passion or an appetite for knowledge, information, and understanding.'' - WIKIPEDIA

Key word: DESIRE

So man desired to go from A to B and built a boat? Would it not be more sensible to say that he saw a log floating in the river and imagine how he could use it to get to the other side and see what was over there? Without seeing the principle of flotation at work I doubt that all of his desires would get him far. — Sir2u

- I think the desire to get on the other side of the river started in man the moment he saw the other shore.