It would be different if it was your property though....

They were probably undercover cops...who knows? — Chester

Possibly. Likely several different groups trying to infiltrate.

I don't entertain the notion that anything written in this thread materially affects the outcomes for oppressed communities in the US.

I am just commenting on what, to me, looks like bad reasoning. — Echarmion

Yes, yes, just like how the majority of the media is 'just commenting' on all the awful 'violence' of these very unaesthetic black people being inappropriately angry just because a cop killed one of them in public again. Uncouth.

I think these "protests" are made up with black protesters who have legit concerns with the cops, black people who want to loot, white middle class people without meaning in their lives and assorted students who haven't got a clue about anything.

Did you see that video of a group of black looters beating up an old white lady...you must be so proud...

Just out of interest , are you a member of antifa, or are you all mouth and trousers?

Literally no one but you has even mentioned the word 'revolution' you insufferable two-bit dolt — StreetlightX

As if using a specific word is the only way to to discuss an idea, you dumb shit. And it's not even literally true. I went back and checked.

I don't know whether leftists are just outright liars or whether they just see what they want to see...they are a strange bunch.

I think that’s a SLIGHT overreaction. I don’t think we’re there yet. I don’t believe most people in the US want the country to split. If it did that would be a pretty big mess - it’s already set up in a way to try and get the best of both worlds with a singular nation and independent states with there own laws.

A large country, like the US, diverse and interconnected landmass breaking up into completely sovereign states would lead to all kinds of horrible situations arising (perhaps even a civil war).

You can’t start over if you burn along with everything else. Stand alone remarks like that are, in my mind, exactly the opposite of what sensible wish to hear - frankly I think it’s a disgustingly irresponsible thing to say in a time like this.

There are people out there willing to take advantage of the situation and rile people up because they want a ‘revolution’. Streetlight said he wants everything to burn ... do you approve of those sentiments at this current junction of social upheaval?

I am listening to what is being said. I am also aware of the rather naive political leanings of some folks on this site (including the mods). Rioting shouldn’t be encouraged. Trashing amazon and such places doesn’t bother me though, but at the end of the day the innocent suffer and lose their businesses when things get out of hand.

From what I’ve seen in the media the protesters are NOT rioting or destroying property. There are vicious elements that are taking advantage of the situation. As an example a major reported that ALL of the arrests made in his home state were from out of state - meaning, those causing destruction and trouble in his home town had no interest in ‘protecting the community’ because it wasn’t their community.

I’ve seen the vast majority of protesters behaving well. I’ve also seen police acting, for the most part, in a civil manner under huge pressure.

Hopefully after this has calmed down a bit we’ll see some actual sensible political candidates come to the fore so after Trump’s/Biden’s next term in office they’ll be a REAL choice for people. If not, this will continue and then I’ll have to side with what christian said (we’re witnessing the initial cracks show in the splitting up of the the US - maybe in a decade or so).

We’re both lucky and cursed with communication. I do have faith in people though so at the end of the day the word is the most powerful tool we can wield to help move forwards instead of backwards.

Note: I’m not from the US so my perspective on the matter is carefully measured in a broader global context.

white middle class people without meaning in their lives — Chester

It's the violent white protesters destroying and instigating shit that really make me angry. Right, left or just spoiling for a fight, doesn't matter.

Yes, I'm an antifascist.

This is was also a step in the right direction where the police chief tells officers to resign who didn't have a problem with kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes. — Marchesk

If that is a step in the right direction, there's a long long long way to go. And how many steps have been taken in fifty years since MLK and Malcolm X? Approximately none. Still trying to get that boot off the neck. Is anyone supposed to think it is progress when under these extremes a police chief says something placatory?

A step in the right direction would be to stop the extra-judicial killings; suggesting it would be a good idea is just more bull. This story is too old now to believe crisis speeches.

I'm the same, it's the middleclass whites that I hate the most...and obviuosly the black thugs beating up old ladies, I hate them too. I can't see how any of this does their "cause" any good, but ho-hum, get the popcorn out.

Hopefully you'll be getting a knock on the door...and this time it wont be your mum.

A step in the right direction would be to stop the extra-judicial killings; suggesting it would be a good idea is just more bull. — unenlightened

I agree with that. Doesn't require looting and burning.

You can’t start over if you burn along with everything else. Stand alone remarks like that are, in my mind, exactly the opposite of what sensible wish to hear - frankly I think it’s a disgustingly irresponsible thing to say in a time like this. — I like sushi

There's nothing sensible about 3 centuries - and more - of injustice.

Doesn't require looting and burning. — Marchesk

What does it require? the campaign has been going a long time, now. What would work? No one here was thinking about the issues much a few days ago.

I thought I made that clear previously, but apparently not — Baden

Actually, looking back I did.

And that doesn't yet mean that burning down Target stores is justified or effective, it only means we've got to the point where it's not necessarily unjustified or at least not any worse than what's been done to the people who are doing it. — Baden

Well, peacefully appealing to the moral sentiments of the ruling aristocracy who have made America a systematically racist shithole clearly isn't going to work. How to effectively apply other forms of pressure is an extremely difficult question. — Baden

Yes, some of the localised violence is uncalled for and counterproductive and even carried out for completely the wrong reasons — Baden

I don't personally feel that random destruction of property is justified and I sympathize with any innocent small business owner who got caught up in this. — Baden

But the main point is the problem with legitimacy, which hasn't been taken up much because the focus is just on saying this or that action is wrong, period. That's an impoverished level of analysis is what I'm saying.

Yes, I'm an antifascist. — StreetlightX

I'd think you'd make a really good fascist, given a chance.

I have noticed that , right through this event, no context whatsoever has been given to the assault of the cop on the man he arrested.

What does it require? the campaign has been going a long time, now. What would work? — unenlightened

The ongoing peaceful protest, which had everyone's backing, with a few exceptions like understandably torching the police precinct after the cops vacated.

What you're missing is the fact that such uprisings need public support...most normal people think these rioters are cunts. Your revolution ain't going to work. — Chester

It's no my revolution.

However, my argument above was not that the looting is effective, only justifiable (if you conclude the state is no longer legitimate).

If we agree the rioting and looting and arson and violence is justifiable in principle, then the next point to debate is if it's effective.

This is actually two questions in one.

First, indeed, is the question of "will the violence be effective in producing a legitimate (enough) state?"

However, there is a second question of whether "any pathways are available at all?".

If the argument against the practical effect of the riots is "they won't work because nothing will work", then maybe you may as well riot anyways while the military state organizes to crush all resistance; going down fighting is perhaps more dignified.

However, if the argument is that other pathways are available, then that argument must be made in a plausible way.

The purpose of more riots to achieve a practical political goal, is the "bet" that agents of the state will, at some point, stage a coup; a "coup of the colonels". Though rioters generally don't have such a plan, they have simply "had enough" with the current state and will simply riot until real appeasement (for instance, mass arrest and trials of associates of Epstein would probably do the trick), the consequence of continued and overwhelming riots is, historically, a military takeover (one way or another).

For, even in a illegitimate state, there is a tension between corruption and noble competence. Even corrupt leaders require, somewhere down the line, state agents that genuinely agree with the ideal of the state; the whole state cannot be corrupt all at once, corrupt elements rely on non-corrupt elements to keep enough order for the fruits of corruption to be enjoyed.

By rioting enough, the non-corrupt elements of the state are forced to recognize there is only one way to re-establish state legitimacy, which is to stage a coup and basically restart the state apparatus in a plausibly way.

However, this is not inevitable, corrupt state agents may create a new ideal for the state, purging legitimate representatives of the previous concept of justice and enlisting supporters to form a new state structure dedicated to a new concept of justice: i.e. a descent into tyranny.

Likewise, a military takeover may simply reestablish the same or a new kind of corrupt state, leading to another revolution of the historical wheel.

Of course, if the democratic process is "working enough" then the riots are just counter productive, too small to get meaningful traction anyway, and just senseless violence leading to the arrest of the rioters (and removal from the political scene and so ability to contribute to their cause).

If I disagree with you do I have a right to come around your house and smash the fuck out of it?

Being actively against fascism is terrorism now, apparently. So being for fascism is what?

'MURICA.

'Parently so. Joining antifa now. As I don't live in a ridiculous country where fighting fascism is terrorism. The negative consequences to that will equal zero.

(OK, not really joining antifa. The point remains though.)

Those things are not justifiable . Most black people in America get on with their lives with no more problems than white people. It may be the case that black people are more likely to engage in illegal activity and that is why the police have more "run-ins" with them. I also notice, from the UK, that many US cops are black...

What does it require? the campaign has been going a long time, now. What would work?
— unenlightened

The ongoing peaceful protest, which had everyone's backing. — Marchesk

That is a pious fantasy. An unarmed black guy is murdered in public view on camera while his fellows look on and do nothing, and no one is arrested.

Until there's a riot.

The peaceful protest that has everyone's backing has made no progress in 50 years. That is a fact.

You are the fascists .

What do you leftists think of Twitter's decision to ban antifa from its site in the US?