Much of the non-black rioting in the States is about spoiled white middle class kids virtue signalling. If you actually think about it they are the real racists...using the black community's problems for their own ego's.

Centre-right.

You're talking bollocks...happiness and misery have and will always exist, they need each other. Life's not about being happy anyway...would you half your IQ to be happy?

Better tell Bernie that, he's done a deal with'em.

I see the Democratic party as social democrats.

Goddamit who gives a shit about this.

It's become abundantly clear in the last 24+ hours that the USA is past the point in getting constructive around solving police brutality and militarization. Since we'd rather beat down protesters regardless if they are peaceful or, heaven forbid, destroying sweet precious property, law enforcement will once again be off the hook. This will enable them to, once again, murder a black person even on video without charge which will lead to more protest and uh no, oh god dare I say, property damage, which will lead to beating down protesters regardless if they are peac...

ok but streetlight i had a good point mate

He's no longer around to respond.

But you like authority and order. Why are you complaining about rules being enforced on you? Fall in line.

Why spend your time calling out potential allies on their supposed lack of ideological purity, rather than, say, use the common ground to build an effective coalition? Making this about "people who criticize the riots Vs people who don't" is a great way to hobble your own movement.

It's become abundantly clear in the last 24+ hours that the USA is past the point in getting constructive around solving police brutality and militarization. Since we'd rather beat down protesters regardless if they are peaceful or, heaven forbid, destroying sweet precious property, law enforcement will once again be off the hook. — Maw

On some level, I kinda wish Trump would actually call in the military, because that will really rally support behind the current protests, and the state will actually show it's most ugly face for people to protest against.

Of course the more armed people there are, the more people are at risk of dieing.

"people who criticize the riots Vs people who don't" is a great way to hobble your own movement. — Echarmion

Y'know what is a far more effective way to hobble a movement? To suck all discourse around it into a black hole over 'rioting and looting' when saying nothing about anything else. Fox News already does that job - and they sure as fuck aren't 'allies'. Don't talk to me about 'ideological purity' when you pearl clutch over broken Targets and stay utterly mute about police violence or solutions. With 'allies' like that who need enemies?

Don't talk to me about 'ideological purity' when you pearl clutch over broken Targets and stay utterly mute about police violence or solutions. With 'allies' like that who need enemies? — StreetlightX

And that's the problem with left wing movements. The right wing may be morally bankrupt and their policies reprehensible, but they do know how do build coalitions and push their agenda down everyone else's throats.

Apparently so, especially when people like you repeat their talking points verbatim. Allies indeed.

↪Chester But you like authority and order. Why are you complaining about rules being enforced on you? Fall in line.

Chester is a working class Tory, an oxymoron, but real, there are lots of them in the UK, they helped to get the Brexit vote through. I tried to explain to him that he is allying himself with the self serving wealthy privelidged classes, but he couldn't see it, he obviously hasn't met any of them. The contortions these people get themselves into are remarkable.

Guys and gals, can keep Chester talk in the banning thread please?

I mentioned earlier that police terror in the US is a matter of social policy. One further observation in support of this: simply consider the difference in the magnitude of state mobilization between COVID and this. For COVID, the American State barely lifted a finger - in fact fumbled with every excuse possible in order not to lift a finger, save for bailing up the richest strata of society. That's the abdication of social provision I mentioned. For this, you're seeing massive State mobilization on a scale unseen since ... I don't know. I don't know what this compares with. — StreetlightX

The Police is part of social policy in every country, StreetlightX.

I think the inability for America to solve this becomes crystal clear in the response of President Donald Trump. Apart from his usual failings to give any coherent answer (what does he mean by holding up a bible in front of a closed church?) to actual real world events. His abilities lies in inventing nicknames to his political rivals and beind outrageous when things are great. Trump is an epitome of the inability of to understand that his response is exactly the problem. Oh sure, he remembers to remark that the killing of Mr. Floyd was a bad thing, but then he goes to be the "Law and Order" President against the rioters using, again due to his utter ignorance, similar language that was used in the 60's.





And nothing, nothing is said about police tactics, training, the whole way the system works, what would be those things really doing something about the institutional racism. That wouldn't cure everything, of course, but it would be a start. The discussion never comes even to that.

The Police is part of social policy in every country, StreetlightX. — ssu

C'mon man, I just wrote you a whole thing about the specific function and employment of the police as a matter of social policy in the US and all you can muster up is 'there are police in every country?'. You can do better than that.

These issues have taken root long, long, long before Trump came into picture. He is at best an accelerant, but certainly not a root cause.

I was thinking that "black lives matter" really is lowballing it. Black lives are sacrosanct just doesn't have the same ring to it, I suppose.

In a way it's banality ought to make its point ever starker - like... how hard is something as simple as that to acknowledge?

Oh, which reminds me -

Specifically with respect to the murder charges for Derek Chauvin, I think there's more reason to assume he should be charged with 1st degree murder.

First of all, the manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation. But Floyd was handcuffed and obviously unarmed by the time Derek put him in this hold. So he should be familiar with the manual but nevertheless chose a method to subdue Floyd (how much subduing does a handcuffed man need?) that wasn't meant for this situation. There was no imminent threat possibly excusing him to forget or to act in the spur of the moment and even if there was, once Floyd was subdued the life-or-death situation passed and he should've changed what he was doing. He didn't, while having ample time to do so.

Second, he was being held like that next to a police vehicle. Why wasn't he transferred into the back of the police car during those first 6 minutes (before he became unresponsive). There was a clear alternative available.

Third, there were three squad cars, so presumably 6 officers at the scene. If he felt threatened or if he was panicking, why didn't he ask for assistance? He didn't ask for help, of course, because he had it under control. Refuting any chance for him to claim some level of panic or fear.

Fourth, the ambulance was called specifically to help Floyd. While it was underway it went from code 2 to code 3. Derek, being the person physically closest to Floyd, was absolutely aware of his deteriorating condition and did fuck all to help him.

Fifth, bystanders warned Derek multiple times Floyd was unresponsive. He still didn't let up and still didn't help Floyd.

With so many instances of being able to (re)consider his actions during those 8 minutes and 46 seconds and the possibility of asking for help from fellow officers or moving Floyd to the car, the continued stranglehold using his knees became premeditated during the course of those 8 minutes and 46 seconds.

"Right but not all jobs are under attack right now".

She's so close yet so far.

Six days later the Civil Rights Act of 1968 was passed, because LBJ and the rest of the government were shitting their pants.

Anyone moaning about violent protest not solving problems can go fuck off a bridge and never come back. — StreetlightX

So I have been thinking about this bit. Is there any reasonable expectation that this time around, there will be Bipartisan support for change? That the republican establishment didn't even seem to blink at Trump's suggestion to send in the army isn't encouraging.

And there is the question of how much good reform does in the short term. Police departments cannot retrain, much less replace, their entire staff overnight. And arguably the police violence is another symptom of the huge economic disparities.

So if the political will isn't there for not just police reform, but a change of economic policy, then what is the next step? The elections aren't until November, and whoever does get elected will not necessarily change much. If the political will doesn't materialize, and I don't think it will, what level of disobedience to the system is justified & effective? Will property damage cause enough disruption to force the holders of economic power to the table? Will just being out in the street, refusing to comply with curfews etc. continue to build pressure?

Thinking about it, it's hard to maintain any hope that anything can cause the necessary change. Just like with gun control, climate change etc.

Amazing disconnect indeed.

So if the political will isn't there for not just police reform, but a change of economic policy, then what is the next step? The elections aren't until November, and whoever does get elected will not necessarily change much. If the political will doesn't materialize, and I don't think it will, what level of disobedience to the system is justified & effective? Will property damage cause enough disruption to force the holders of economic power to the table? Will just being out in the street, refusing to comply with curfews etc. continue to build pressure?

Thinking about it, it's hard to maintain any hope that anything can cause the necessary change. Just like with gun control, climate change etc. — Echarmion

I think you're correct in your assessment that these changes will not be overnight or that it's not just about police reform. But you mustn't confuse what effective means here. You're looking at the endgame and seeing it's so far removed from where it is now, that you don't see the road to it. It's taken step-by-step. There's nothing wrong with incremental change.

So I think all civil disobedience is justified until such time as there are concrete proposals on the table for police reform with reasonable assurances that the plans will be implemented. That seems to be the immediate, and justified, demand of the protesters at this time.

It's not enough for a fair and just society but it's a good start.

what level of disobedience to the system is justified & effective? Will property damage cause enough disruption to force the holders of economic power to the table? Will just being out in the street, refusing to comply with curfews etc. continue to build pressure?

Thinking about it, it's hard to maintain any hope that anything can cause the necessary change. Just like with gun control, climate change etc. — Echarmion

So I think all civil disobedience is justified until such time as there are concrete proposals on the table for police reform with reasonable assurances that the plans will be implemented. That seems to be the immediate, and justified, demand of the protesters at this time.

It's not enough for a fair and just society but it's a good start. — Benkei

This looks like the discussion that needs to be had. It is obvious, to some of us at least, that the institutions of government have lost the moral authority, and public protest and mass disobedience is justified. "Riot" can be seen to be a political term used in attempting to delegitimise the protest, and legitimise the suppression of protest.

Clearly, the destruction of property to save life and prevent injustice is legitimate and justified.
Clearly, there has not been much concession made to the protest, but rather an intensifying suppression.

What level can such escalation lead to? It can lead to a race war and to genocide. But if that is where the government takes its stand, then it will make clear what some of us already suspect, that a race war and genocide is government policy.

I am a man of peace; just because I happen to have invaded Austria and Poland, doesn't mean I want war...

The solution to the problems is to create anti-segregation laws and funding to help black communities to prosper up to a level on par with the privileges of white people. While silencing white supremacy, alt-right racist propaganda and their spread online based on the Karl Popper principle of not tolerating the intolerable.

Society acts upon a level of uncertainty about how to fight fascism and the intolerable which are pushing states into racist acts against their people. This confusion among the public creates an apathy that let racist ideologies to spread and destroy society, especially when they enter the stage of state police violence.

Silence fascism, alt-right and white supremacy. Push social medias and youtube to take down popular channels who can be proven to spread that propaganda. The only problem I see is the inaction of people confused as to how to think and act while still agreeing that white supremacy propaganda is bad.

I'll vote for you. But what's to do when "fascism, alt-right and white supremacy" are in power? 'Fight the power' seems like an idea...

A bad target. I hope he gets justice. Substantive issues surrounding the protest remain unchanged.

I am suspicious, however, since the footage comes from Infowars. The homeless guy was apparently really homeless, though.

So when we drop bombs on other countries, we shrug and it's collateral damage. But protesters beware!

I'm sorry for the homeless guy but it's totally irrelevant.