Western Justice — ernestm

Wait I didn't know apartheid was Western Justice.

You’re really quite pathetic. It’s getting really tiresome.

I didn't know apartheid was Western Justice. — StreetlightX

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Im not an expert, but what I hear is that apartheid conceptually derived from Gandhi's partition of Pakistan, which went much better than anyone expected, so much so Apartheid was initiated in South Africa the following year, but tried to minimize relocation, which did turn out to be a rather major effort in India.

What's wrong? Your jimmies a little too rustled? Panties too twisted?

the problem is, such statistics can also be interpreted to substantiate the Sapir/Whorf hypothesis, because, African Americans simply have a different concept of justice than Caucasians due to their linguistic heritage, which does not define boundaries of property ownership like Caucasians naturally do, for example. — ernestm

Firstly, the black community in the UK is not African American but overwhelmingly either African or Afro Caribbean. Secondly, this is not the report of black people but of the UK Judiciary, about how black people and other minorities are treated by the justice system. What the people stopped and searched, arrested, and sentenced,, disproportionately think or are incapable of thinking has no bearing on the matter at all.

There you go. Why take anything you say seriously?

Well I have seen a number of such stops and searches right in front of my house, when people decided they were going to live on the verge between my front yard and the road. Sometimes they lived there quite a long time. White people do not generally decide to live on the verge outside someone's house, and I was quite perplexed about what I was meant to say about it over the 10 years, four house breakins, a series of attempted assaults for me being a 'white motherfucker,' someone shooting my cat with an airgun so it died slowly over a week, and then shooting at my bed through windows on drivebys. The first time that happened, I did what the police suggested, packed an overnight bag, got in my car whoich had also been vandalized, and left for 18 months, leaving the water and electricty on, because otherwise they set fire to your furniture to stay warm and shit on the floor of the smallest bedroom, until they are actually caught, which I did not want to be involved in. So I am not the person to debate social justice, for reasons of my personal experience with black gangs, sorry. I can talk about the Sapir Whorf hypothesis though, it's pretty cool )

I don't need clowns to take me seriously.

Keep going , you’ll reveal yourself eventually.

I suspect the hypothesis is bullshit. — Benkei

These are ivory tower bullshit — StreetlightX

You are taking ernestm way too seriously if you think that his take on the Sapir/Whorf hypothesis has much to do with "ivory tower" anything.

Probably.

That is a sad story. But not a response to what I posted. It explains but does not justify your personal racist attitudes, but does not explain the discrimination in the justice system of another country at every stage from stop, to arrest, to charging to conviction rate to sentencing and nor does Sapir/Whorf even if true. Racial prejudice throughout the justice system is the only possible explanation.

As I say, I do not have the experience to discuss whether my personal attitudes are just or not. That is the job of the court when they finally locked them away for making the bad person of killing another white person who lived in a richer neigborhood. So maybe its because they are poor, or maybe because I am the white motherfucker who is no better than an animal like they said I am, or maybe it is something else, but I now have too much personal experience for having been attacked because the attackers stated I was a white animal and they liked hurting me. They thought it was fun, and not one black person in the neighborhood, even those who frequently and loudly called themselves my close friend, did anything at all to help me. That's the most I can tell you. Because one thing I do know for certaintly. I am for sure never going to change the opinion you already have. No one can. You decided it and stated it with total and absolute conviction that white people are in the wrong, exactly what I do to have you put me in the same basket, I cannot predict, nor anymore frankly care, I have been called a white animal often enough already to cease considering it a rational debate any more. Thats all I can tell you.

I am truly sorry for you, I think you have been traumatised by some really bad experiences, and I don't at all mean to insult or belittle you. We are not going to reach agreement through further discussion, so I apologise if I have added insult to injury, and wish you well. I think I'll leave it there.

NO you didnt, but thank you for thinking to apologize. That puts you almost in a class by yourself with regards to my personal exdperience. and I do have something I want to ask you about racist language, if you would be so kind to consider something besides my own trauma, lol, about my first post on this thread.

I shared the following letter to Brad Heath, Journalist at USA Today:

"Sir, I am writing you because of your article:"Baltimore police stopped noticing crime after Freddie Gray's death. A wave of killings followed," July 12, 2018. Link:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltimore-police-not-noticing-crime-after-freddie-gray-wave-killings-followed/744741002/
I tried raising your issue on Facebook that hundreds more black lives will probably be lost due to lack of police intervention, as per your article. I was repeatedly banned due to complaints this constitutes hate speech, probably by felonious-minded people. I sincerely request that you compare the current scenario in Minnesota with Baltimore. — ernest meyer

I was immediately banned on Facebook a third time in two weeks, due to allegations of racism and hate speech. If you can find what is racist or hateful in what I wrote, I'd be glad to hear it, because UI have had no success at all so far. A few democrats who are not black did comment on what i wrote that i was a total idiot to think more black people would be murdered without the existence of police intervention, despite proven history in the above article, that the likely result is a tripling of murders in all-black neighborhoods.

And I got really insulted as a white animal for trying to save those black lives, which I thought was meant to be the point of 'black lives matter.'

in essence. I am led to believe the conversation is now dominated by sociopaths on Facebook who care more about themselves, and the dubious virtues they anticipate for themselves of there being no police intervention at all, than the lives of the black people their actions are killing, despite whatever claims they make.

What do you think?

you don't need to stop describing people's physical characteristics
people clearly have different physical characteristics

but if we want to end racism, we all must stop describing people as if they were parts of different categories like "black" "white" etc.

My suggestion only makes sense for those of us who do not endorse the concept of race as socially useful and scientifically valid

You clearly do endorse the concept of race

And nothing in this story is part of the human condition, nothing is inevitable. We do not need to behave like this, we do not need to treat each other like this. and learning a different way of speaking will not sort it. — unenlightened

oh but it is about the language, if children were taught from the beginning of their lives that humans are humans and not that there are sub-categories of humans like "black" "white" etc then they would not have a conceptual framework in their brain structures that would allow them to prefer one sub-category over the other
racism would be gone in a matter of a generation or maybe 2 depending on the extent of rate of adoption of this amongst parents

Not only in language, but by extension thinking. If we view individuals as individuals rather than a component of this or that race we negate any foundation for race-thinking. — NOS4A2

absolutely, I am starting from this foundational point that in fact we are all humans and that the evolutionary differences we see in our skin colour and other physical characteristics are just that, physical differences

so by not using words like "black" "white" etc I am simply aligning by language with the structure of my thought

acism is not fueld by the names we choose to use as a means to describe people we devalue based upon the color of their skin.

One will devalue black people, if they are so inclined, regardless of the language used to do so.

It's the devaluation that's the problem, not the means for doing so. Language use is the means. — creativesoul

if there is no such thing as "black people" in our language then "black people" can not be devalued

if you truly see everyone as human, then at least one potential category of devaluation "race" is eliminated

What do you think? — ernestm

I'm a follower of a facebook page that puts up art by women artists through history, and the person who runs it has been banned many times for posting nakedness. Facebook is shit.

Looking at the article, and with a large caveat of ignorance, I'd say you have a completely valid point, and there is nothing inherently racist in what you say.
But, from what I read there is a big problem in Baltimore. Let me say that I do not absolve black people of all responsibility on the grounds of racism. I am an antiracist, and that means I believe black people are just as capable of being assholes as anyone else. And in general, I am in favour of assholes being dealt with by the police.

But we have deaths in custody, we have convictions for corruption, we have suggestions of unlawful use of police power. I assume, (correct me if I'm wrong,) we are dealing with a predominately white police and a predominately black community. And a long history of antagonism. In such a case, it is almost inevitable that there is an identification on all sides of white corrupt police v. black criminals. I pity the cops here, because whatever they do including if they do nothing, it looks racist. and doing nothing probably costs more black lives, than are lost in the back of police vans.

"If they don't like us killing them, we'll leave them kill each other."

Said probably no one, but it's what has been done. But I don't think it would be right to lay the blame for this at the door of those who protest the police injustices aforementioned. The black community needs policing; every community needs policing. And every community needs policing it can trust and assent to. The best way to do that is not to start from here, as the Irish proverbially say. But failing that, police corruption and violent prejudice needs to be called out and rooted out, black officers need to be predominant in black neighbourhoods, segregation need to be tackled, and drug dealers need to be harassed. We need justice and we need it to be fair and proportionate.

"If they don't like us killing them, we'll leave them kill each other." — unenlightened

Well I hav eto say, from the huge outpouring of hate for raising this point on democratic forums, I have to admit, I had come to the conclusion, everyone seems to be very keen on letting them kill each other. I wanted to stop it, but if no journalists respond either, I have to give up and let them kill each other.

I understand what you are saying about systemic prejudice but my own experience, once after I had to throw out a room mate for taking cocaine, who filed charges against me and I had no idea what was happening until I ended up in jail, that at least in San Jose, they dont care what color you are. They mistreat everyone for fun. Its just about the only perk their job has.

I find it hard to beleive the abuse could amount to anywhere near equivalent to a murder a day.

But I do understand your point. After some time in jail, I discovered they had phones there where I called a friend to bail me out and I was acquitted of all charges. It was a very unpleasant and highly educational experience, and some of the bruises lasted weeks.

I find it hard to beleive the abuse could amount to anywhere near equivalent to a murder a day. — ernestm

It's not a great advert for policing though is it? "Safer than the Mafia!"

Well I just started a new thread on the future possibility of rodney king style riots, perhaps you would be so kind to help me out there too

oh but it is about the language, if children were taught from the beginning of their lives that humans are humans and not that there are sub-categories of humans like "black" "white" etc then they would not have a conceptual framework in their brain structures that would allow them to prefer one sub-category over the other
racism would be gone in a matter of a generation or maybe 2 depending on the extent of rate of adoption of this amongst parents — dazed

You are overthinking it. We should just raise everyone in the world as non-racist. There, problem solved.

This may sound like a joke, but that's because your proposal is a joke. Even if such a language change could accomplish anything (of course not), how the hell is this supposed to work? If you have no idea and are just daydreaming, then why set your sights so low? Why not daydream about everyone living happily ever after? If that could be achieved, then we wouldn't have to worry about such petty concerns as racism.

(Of course, daydreaming about reforming language in order to cure racism is only marginally more asinine than daydreaming about a world social revolution as a cure for all ills.)

his may sound like a joke, but that's because your proposal is a joke. Even if such a language change could accomplish anything (of course not), how the hell is this supposed to work? If you have no idea and are just daydreaming, then why set your sights so low? Why not daydream about everyone living happily ever after? If that could be achieved, then we wouldn't have to worry about such petty concerns as racism.

(Of course, daydreaming about reforming language in order to cure racism is only marginally more asinine than daydreaming about a world social revolution as a cure for all ills.) — SophistiCat

I am not daydreaming I have modified my language in such a way to not include race referring language and when I did so I could see that my own tendencies towards categorization and resulting preference slowly melted away.

How could it work? It would work like any other change in our language that better reflects our understanding of reality, adjustments would have to be made, just like we had to so when we stopped seeing the world as flat.

And yes I recognize it won't land us in Utopia, but it will move us away from racism and its harms. It's at least a move in the right direction.

It is natural to have words for phenomena that are clearly noticeable since then it’s possible to talk about what we see. We notice there is a general difference between how people look and like any other difference it’s convenient to place them in approximate categories. That’s not the same as claiming there’s a fundamental difference.

Suppose you were witness to a crime and the police asked you to describe the people involved. If one of them were, well black, negro, African American, whatever, it would be a lot easier for you to convey that idea by using one word that would be directly understood. If you said the person had a dark complexion and dark curly hair, that could also be a description of a person normally referred to as white or Caucasian. Why then make it so difficult? Would you try to invoke racial stereotypes, like broad nose, to slowly give the police the idea of what you were talking about? What you saw was a man who looked as if his ancestors came from sub-Saharan Africa and it’s just convenient to have a word for that.

Whether such a thing as race exists, is not an interesting question in this context. Something exists, and we need a word for it.

Whether such a thing as race exists, is not an interesting question in this context. Something exists, and we need a word for it.[/quote]

right so again you are starting from the position that in fact racial categories exist that people should be put in
what is this something that you posit exists?

I would suggest the only thing in our reality that we need to describe are the physical differences we see. the categories of black, white etc are not merely categories of physical difference, they are used to denote subspecies of humans

it is that tendency to divide humans into subspecies that is at the root of racism, take away the root and the weed of racism can not grow

Carlos hoyt expresses the strategy well here:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Fo-IBh_yMqo9PJYXHsLizUgF0FgTnRze/edit#slide=id.p62

include race referring language — dazed

You just referred to race.

Don't think about a pink elephant.

word play
I clearly meant I don't use words in a way that sustains the concept of race and the resulting racism

you are starting from the position that in fact racial categories exist that people should be put in
what is this something that you posit exists? — dazed

We notice that a person looks as if his ancestors came from sub-Saharan Africa. We notice that a person looks Chinese. (He could be Japanese, Vietnamese or American, but he looks like people generally look in China.) A person has an Indian or Arab appearance, we notice that, and there’s nothing we can do about it. We put people into categories whether we like to or not and there’s no use pretending it isn’t so.

It would be rather silly to avoid talking about what everyone is thinking about. Concealing one’s thoughts in vague language is one definition of hypocrisy.

Suppose one person in a group is a friend of yours and you want to point him out. He happens to be the only black person in the group. Why wouldn’t you just say “That black man is my friend” instead of going through an elaborate description of his clothes or other characteristics that he may share with other people in the group?

Why is it that you understand exactly what I mean when I say “black”? If it wasn’t something existing, you wouldn’t have understood what I meant. You know that people of European descent have certain general characteristics that distinguish them from people of east-Asian descent so why pretend otherwise? We notice it anyway.