So, I'm curious...
How do you account for the belief of language less creatures? — creativesoul
Expectation is belief about what will take place, or in this case belief about what is about to happen. Her thinking about the sound is nothing more than drawing correlations between the same things... the sound and receiving treats.
Animals show belief by displaying expectation.
Pavlov's dog involuntarily slobbering after hearing the bell shows us, along with his path towards the food bowl, that he thinks, believes, and/or expects to be fed. All as a result of drawing correlations between the sound of the bell and eating food. We can change the sound of the bell, to any sound we arbitrarily choose so long as it is audible to the dog. The same results will happen because the same thing is happening... correlations are being drawn. — creativesoul
The so-called expectation just is the behavior. It is not implied or demonstrated by the behavior. Or rather it's not clear what talk of this implication adds. — path
I don't have some finished theory and doubt I ever will. — path
When a cat stands in front of it's treat bowl immediately after hearing the sound of the plastic treat bag being opened, looks up and meows at the caretaker, you're claiming that that cat's behaviour is not putting it's own expectation/belief on display?
Really? — creativesoul
Do you agree that language less creatures form, have, and/or hold belief? — creativesoul
If expectation is referring to the cat's consciousness... — path
I was just trying to figure out how you were using 'expectation,' I guess. — path
My guess is that that is not true, and you know it!
Earlier... not so long ago actually... I stated the following...
Expectation is belief about what will take place. — creativesoul
I've a ton of sympathy and appreciation for Heiddy... regarding his focus on language. — creativesoul
I really was just trying to get clear on what you meant.
I think I may have it. — path
You agree that beliefs require no consciousness or language. — path
Expectation is simply an enacted belief about the future.
What is the term "consciousness" doing here? I mean what is it accomplishing? What's it adding aside from an unnecessary multiplication of entities? There's no need to invoke it. — creativesoul
Wow, we are misunderstanding each other. I've been contorting myself to get away from 'consciousness' and 'the unnecessary multiplication of entities.' — path
I've been bringing up consciousness and mentalistic language in order to avoid it and take some distance from it. But it's hard to strip it entirely from our meta-language. We are just trained in to talking this way. We can only talk against this training by simultaneously employing it. — path
We are just trained in to talking this way. We can only talk against this training by simultaneously employing it. — path
That is the target. We clearly have thought and belief prior to language. What does it consist of? — creativesoul
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rorty/the kind of antiessentialist who, like Dewey, sees no breaks in the hierarchy of increasingly complex adjustments to novel stimulation—the hierarchy which has amoeba adjusting themselves to changed water temperature at the bottom, bees dancing and chess players check-mating in the middle, and people fomenting scientific, artistic, and political revolutions at the top. — Rorty
I'm tempted to think of organisms reacting to stimuli. — path
We clearly have thought and belief - of some rudimentary basic and/or simple variety prior to language; that is prior to any and all notions, definitions, and/or conceptions of "thought", "belief", "imagination", "mind"... prior to language creation/acquisition itself. — creativesoul
I'm not a Rorty fan, by the way... He mistakenly holds that truth is dependent upon language, which is prima facie evidence that he has no coherent conception of non linguistic thought or belief. — creativesoul
Language begins when one creature successfully refers to something by use of proxy of some sort, marks, sounds, gestures, etc. — creativesoul
...I guess I don't see a clean break where language begins. — path
Do you mean that one thing represents another, or points to it in some sense? — path
Language use begins when a plurality of creatures draw the same correlations between different things. Reference is only one use. We also get others to do stuff with language use. — creativesoul
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