I disagree. Humans are flawed for sure, but I see a lot of “progress” that has to be accounted for if you’re going to claim that everything is corrupted by us. You mention politics and religion as examples, but both have made progress towards a more humane existence. The majority of the world has moved past despotism towards more egalitarian societies, and most religions have done away with human sacrifices, the stoning of infidels, and burning witches. Perhaps you mean something different by “corrupt” than I do, but in my view a corrupt system doesn’t progress, it regresses.

I agree with what Pinprick had to say about your thesis.

:gasp: :razz:

I would've liked to take the Democritean Abderitan attitude but Heraclitean melancholy prevents me from doing so.

Your attitude is simple, mostly everyone is powerless and want the powerful to be kind, however, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. One powerful man can reign over millions and millions, they can all be at his mercy. There's really no animal who does not abuse his power, power creates tyranny. It is the nature of power that corrupts systems, there can only be attempts to design systems carefully so that power can be kept in check. The perfect system is where power could never be abused.

Man corrupts every single thing it creates and every single thing we digest.

People complain about religion, politics , capitalism but at the core the issue is how humans manipulate these process’s and quite often how we warp them to oppress certain sections of society.

There seems a paradox in terms of how you can choose to deal with it. You can try and take action but will inevitably end up driven mad , made into a pariah or actually made a martyr but forgotten quickly as the next corrupt strategy is used to undo any progress.

So it seems like an ignorant existence of sorts is potentially more rewarding. But is this a corruption of what you know to be true? Is the price/reward of clarity , to be burdened with the pain of seeing the world of humanity for what it is?

I always think of the red/blue pill question in the matrix. Would I rather be oblivious to how horrible this world really is or is it better to know the truth (or what appears to be the truth) about how our species destroys And corrupts everything We touch?! — Drumpot

The processes you mention (religion, politics, capitalism) are warped and corrupted by ignorance, isolation and exclusion: the conscious and value-driven choices we make to avoid integrating information about the world that appears to threaten the existence, meaning or truth of these processes.

Seeing the truth of the world and ourselves, with all of the pain, humiliation, lack and loss this brings, enables us to make progress in the first place. You can’t change the world without first recognising where we’re at, what our limitations are and what we have been isolating or excluding as wrong, immoral, illogical, or pure imagination.

The processes you mention (religion, politics, capitalism) are warped and corrupted by ignorance, isolation and exclusion: — Possibility

I don’t think that’s true. I think that religion, politics and capitalism are exactly what they are, they are not corrupted by ignorance, isolation and exclusion. I thinks that’s overthinking, (conscious or unconscious I don’t know), they’re tools of what I suspect is a political creature. What they do is exactly what they were intended for.

As a concept they are exactly what they are - as a process their potential is often corrupted by self-serving ignorance, institutional isolation and fearful exclusion. It is how we define concepts that limit their potential to encourage human progress.

What ways would you say religion, politics and capitalism have been corrupted? What’s the evidence? I don’t think ignorance, isolation and exclusion are evidence of corruption. What was the purpose of religion and how has that purpose been corrupted?

What was the purpose of capitalism and how has it been corrupted?

Ditto politics.

Your post seems to suggest some fully formed entity that was delivered to us whole and then corrupted by us.

Would I rather be oblivious to how horrible this world really is or is it better to know the truth (or what appears to be the truth) about how our species destroys And corrupts everything We touch?! — Drumpot

There’s no doubt we’re complex creatures. But we are extremely successful evidenced by our still being here. I don’t know if it’s true that we destroy and corrupt everything. We may be behaving in the best way possible for our survival.

There’s an interesting idea about the difference between the political right and left, or conservatives and progressives (whatever that is) that conservatives believe man is flawed but that he cannot be changed. Instead we must live with that knowledge and make the world as good as we can under the circumstances. It also explains why religion and conservatism seem to go hand in hand; man is a sinner, he’s imperfect, he has to live with that understanding, hence the confessional, etc.

The left see man as corrupt and instead of living with it they want to change him from what he is into something better. No room for religion here.

Take your pick.

I think I can see your problem with what I’ve said: fair enough, I don’t think I’ve made myself very clear at all.

I was responding to the suggestion that ignorance may be more rewarding. My point was that the ‘warping’ and ‘corruption’ of human potential that Drumpot seemed to be referring to - rather than a corruption of religion and politics themselves - is a result of ignorance, etc. in how we do religion, politics, capitalism, etc.

There’s no doubt we’re complex creatures. But we are extremely successful evidenced by our still being here. I don’t know if it’s true that we destroy and corrupt everything. We may be behaving in the best way possible for our survival. — Brett

Do you really believe that survival is the game here? Don’t you think that’s aiming a little low? It’s not like we’ve ever been in danger of extinction - except by our own hands. If you mean individually, then survival is losing battle, always.

There’s an interesting idea about the difference between the political right and left, or conservatives and progressives (whatever that is) that conservatives believe man is flawed but that he cannot be changed. Instead we must live with that knowledge and make the world as good as we can under the circumstances. It also explains why religion and conservatism seem to go hand in hand; man is a sinner, he’s imperfect, he has to live with that understanding, hence the confessional, etc.

The left see man as corrupt and instead of living with it they want to change him from what he is into something better. No room for religion here. — Brett

There’s a third option: that man is a work in progress, limited in his potential, yes - but still radically underachieving as a rule.

It is not that we cant make progress, its that we spoil everything good we invent. Better health, we take it for granted, over eat/drink/drugs. Better travelling opportunities, we over use it to poison our world. Better medications, we take more risks with our health (see COVID19 issues even with masks). Better education, the cost of it goes up restricting access. Better technology, we get lazy and addicted to screens.

I could go on, but the intrinsic flaws in man and the individual will mean that we will eventually corrupt everything. We haven't even traveled much outside our planet and there is rubbish surrounding us, with Elon Musk about to launch satellite's that may make star gazing eventually impossible.

In terms of the word corruption, I suppose I was thinking of it in the sense that there are people who misuse or warp the systems (religion, politics, financial systems etc) to bend to their will. Perhaps I have a naieve understanding of these concepts, but I was under the impression the basic principles behind these subjects was allowing us as a species to co exist in a more organized manner, in such a chaotic environment. If everybody corrupted these subjects, they would cease to have a meaningful purpose.

I am thinking partially from the context of when people say "religion is bad" or "Capitalism is bad" or "politics is all corrupt". They are not bad, but they are corrupted by people in the name of these systems/ideals. Individuals are what corrupts these things, not necessarily the ideology.

In saying that, I saw one topic on communism and while it might of failed, I think it has a better concept at its core (the greater good of everybody over the individual), then capitalism which is basically the incentive to get as much stuff as you can at the expense of others.

The way I see it you can view humans as a flawed creature, which would suggest our survival over time is a miracle, or that they have endured and overcome incredible challenges over time to get here. You may not like what you see but our being here, our survival, is no accident. If we are corrupt, if that’s our history, our nature, then that’s who we are. But define corrupt.

capitalism which is basically the incentive to get as much stuff as you can at the expense of others. — Drumpot

If that’s what capitalism is, if it behaves in exactly that way, then in what way is it corrupt?

I definitely feel man is underachieving, this is part my sentiments. We allow petty squabbly, warped political ideals, greed and fear be some of our biggest drivers.

Brexit and Trump in USA are prime examples of what can happen when people feel helpless and without options. They lack the capacity to communicate and the other side lacks the capacity to listen and so the disenfranchised burn everything down with no idea where it will end.

It is interesting when you watch disaster movies and it always takes aliens to unite the world. Indeed, I saw a similar thing happen with pet rabbits. They used to fight all the time, until we got a pet dog, they quickly became best of friends. You would of thought that COVID might help Unit the world, even for the briefest of times but instead we have an even more divided world. In times of crisis you know who your friends are and even allies in the EU saw how quickly each country reverted to self serving measures. (Eg Germany not allowing medical supplies go to Switzerland).

I think its so sad that we are capable of so much and achieve so little of this potential

There’s a third option: that man is a work in progress, limited in his potential, yes - but still radically underachieving as a rule. — Possibility

Yes, I know this is your position, and I can’t argue against it. It’s a hope for improvement but not an idea I can embrace.

That is a very good point. I suppose I was trying to be less politically opinionated but I cant hide my distaste for this flawed system.

Maybe Capitalism is a corrupted ideal, as there is a finite amount of resources and it only redistributes these resources in a disjointed fashion. I have discussed it being comparable with the feudal system. Once you get to a certain point in the Capitalist pyramid, you are effectively mostly above the law and beholden to nobody.

Our survival is a miracle. I watch alot of astronomy documentaries and the conditions that were needed for us to evolve are difficult to fathom.

What is sad is that the most likely end of our demise will be from either our own hands (nuclear/Bio war) or from a natural event (Global warming, Meteorite etc) that we might of been able to prevent in some form with our technological advances. We have no long term global defense policy. You need only look at all the individual pharmaceutical companies working independently for a cure to COVID trying to make a profit.

If we all actually worked in tandem this virus might be beaten much quicker, but instead monetary gain is the motivation. Some of our basest instincts will be our undoing as they often are.

Once you get to a certain point in the Capitalist pyramid, you are effectively mostly above the law and beholden to nobody. — Drumpot

Except the dynamics of Capitalism which can bring you down virtually overnight.

This is from Wikipedia;

“ Capitalism in its modern form can be traced to the emergence of agrarian capitalism and mercantilism in the early Renaissance, in city-states like Florence.[36] Capital has existed incipiently on a small scale for centuries.”

Condition would have to be right for Capitalism to thrive. Otherwise it wouldn’t get past seed stage. So those conditions were already there and perfect to help in its emergence.

It is not that we cant make progress, its that we spoil everything good we invent. — Drumpot

I wouldn’t consider having an imperfect system “spoiled.” And if you’re going to call it corrupt, I feel like you would need to show that the flaws are intentional, and not accidental, and that they either oppress a certain group or benefit a particular group.

Better health, we take it for granted, over eat/drink/drugs. Better travelling opportunities, we over use it to poison our world. Better medications, we take more risks with our health (see COVID19 issues even with masks). Better education, the cost of it goes up restricting access. Better technology, we get lazy and addicted to screens. — Drumpot

Lol, most of these examples describe me. So, first of all, I think I could probably come up with an argument that these issues aren’t actually bad. At the very least I would ask you to show that they are bad. Also I think you’re overlooking the fact that our ideals conflict. We want to be healthy, but we we also want to experience the pleasure of tasty, unhealthy food. We also value freedom of choice, and these systems are designed in such a way that our freedom of choice is more or less kept intact.

In terms of the word corruption, I suppose I was thinking of it in the sense that there are people who misuse or warp the systems (religion, politics, financial systems etc) to bend to their will. — Drumpot

You seem to be talking about two different things. You generically mention politics and religion as being corrupt, but your examples are neither political nor religious. In this case, you would need to show what the intent or purpose of these systems are. I think this is in line with what @Brett is getting at. Also, all human systems bend to the will of the people or leaders. How could they not? Furthermore, I would add that people within a system can be corrupt, but that doesn’t mean the whole system is corrupt. In order for that to be the case the system would need to foster corruption. Don’t the systems you mention typically take measures to limit or avoid corruption?

I was under the impression the basic principles behind these subjects was allowing us as a species to co exist in a more organized manner, in such a chaotic environment. — Drumpot

We do. Or do you think we got along better 100 or 500 or 1,000 years ago? The fact that things have consistently gotten better is proof of the systems effectiveness.

If everybody corrupted these subjects, they would cease to have a meaningful purpose. — Drumpot

Do you think this has happened? Have we ceased to have a meaningful purpose?