This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

A computer is a configuration of atoms. If the Universe is infinite, can we have huge places like an entire galaxy of computers even if there was no living intelligence there? — Eugen

Do you mean a galaxy simulated inside a computer? We can do that even in a finite computer. In fact we simulate galaxies right now with the computers we have.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/05/galaxy-simulations-are-last-matching-reality-and-producing-surprising-insights-cosmic

On the other hand, do you mean a galaxy literally made of computers? Like it's a galaxy, but instead of stars and planets space dust, it's entirely filled with mainframes from the 1960's, IBM PCs from the 80s, eight-inch floppy disks, last year's iPhones? An entire galaxy where obsolete computer hardware goes to simply orbit a black hole for eternity? Once beloved and then abandoned by a fickle market that always wants something newer?

Yes that's entirely plausible. A lot of my old hardware is out there I'm sure.

The old monkeys and Shakespeare thing. If the probability of something happening is 10^-20 does that mean it could happen? But who or what assigns even that probability?

The universe is a jungle, folks. :gasp:

The universe is a jungle, folks. :gasp: — jgill

Meinong’s jungle, specifically.

Unless you can establish that it is impossible...of course it is possible. Which, essentially, is what you are asking.

I think it's the opposite.

If the universe were finite then every known possible configuration of particles, including computers and their various arrangements, would actualize and re-actualize in a finite amount of time.

In an infinite universe there would be infinite possibilities, too many, if that's even correct, configurations for the particles to cycle through, making every permutation probably just a one-off event.

Perhaps you mean if time were infinite. With infinite time and a finite amount of particles, yes, every possible matter-energy permutation would, at one time, become true of the universe and that includes one with only computers.

The old monkeys and Shakespeare thing. If the probability of something happening is 10^-20 does that mean it could happen? But who or what assigns even that probability?

The universe is a jungle, folks. :gasp: — jgill

Yes, but there is one thing: the monkey has to use its hands in a way it won't limit itself to hitting the keyboard in the same patterns over and over again, otherwise infinite won't help much.

On the other hand, do you mean a galaxy literally made of computers? Like it's a galaxy, but instead of stars and planets space dust, it's entirely filled with mainframes from the 1960's, IBM PCs from the 80s, eight-inch floppy disks, last year's iPhones? An entire galaxy where obsolete computer hardware goes to simply orbit a black hole for eternity? Once beloved and then abandoned by a fickle market that always wants something newer? — fishfry

This type. But it seems our telescopes show us only stars and planets, no other type of galaxyes.

Unless you can establish that it is impossible...of course it is possible — Frank Apisa

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Proving-Non-Existence

:cool:

jgill
645
Unless you can establish that it is impossible...of course it is possible
— Frank Apisa

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Proving-Non-Existence — jgill

I know about shifting the burden of proof...and that was not the gist of my comment.

By definition...anything not established as IMPOSSIBLE...is, at very least, POSSIBLE.

This usually gets into a long discussion...and if you want to pursue it, I'll start another thread. I don't want to derail this one.

If I were to say, yes,there may be such a galaxy, would I be indulging in metaphysics? :chin:

This type. But it seems our telescopes show us only stars and planets, no other type of galaxyes. — Eugen

I was being a little tongue in cheek contemplating a galaxy made up of all the discarded technology of all the other galaxies. Of course galaxies by definition are made up of lots of stars, with some of those stars having planets.

fishfry
1.5k
This type. But it seems our telescopes show us only stars and planets, no other type of galaxyes.
— Eugen

I was being a little tongue in cheek contemplating a galaxy made up of all the discarded technology of all the other galaxies. Of course galaxies by definition are made up of lots of stars, with some of those stars having planets. — fishfry

Actually, galaxies are made up of lots of dust...some of which turns into stars which then turn back into dust. And planets and such also.

Some of that dust gets into my computer at times!

Or, my computer gets into some of that dust at times!

Very confusing . . . :worry:

Just because something is infinite it does not mean that it contains all possibilities. You can have an infinity of integers without one fractional number in it anywhere.

Actually, galaxies are made up of lots of dust...some of which turns into stars which then turn back into dust. And planets and such also. — Frank Apisa

We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Just because something is infinite it does not mean that it contains all possibilities. You can have an infinity of integers without one fractional number in it anywhere. — A Seagull

I actually agree with you. But apparently, it's just the two of us who believe that. So I personally believe that even if the universe is infinite, you will get only a set of things.

I actually agree with you. But apparently, it's just the two of us who believe that. So I personally believe that even if the universe is infinite, you will get only a set of things. — Eugen

Well some people prefer fantasy to reality, or perhaps they just can't tell the difference.

On the other hand, do you mean a galaxy literally made of computers? Like it's a galaxy, but instead of stars and planets space dust, it's entirely filled with mainframes from the 1960's, IBM PCs from the 80s, eight-inch floppy disks, last year's iPhones? An entire galaxy where obsolete computer hardware goes to simply orbit a black hole for eternity? Once beloved and then abandoned by a fickle market that always wants something newer? — fishfry

if this were true, then there would also be an infinite number of galaxies made of nothing but pineapples and bananas.

Kaarlo Tuomi

Agree

if this were true, then there would also be an infinite number of galaxies made of nothing but pineapples and bananas. — Kaarlo Tuomi

Not necessarily. The sequence 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 ... has infinitely many 1's but not infinitely many fish. Not any in fact.

It is not true that "everything must happen" in an infinite set. For example in the infinite set of primes {2, 3, 5, 7, 11, ...} there are no composite numbers.

But I didn't understand your point. I do not need an infinite universe to have a galaxy full of old technology. I just need a large finite universe with enough scientifically advanced civilizations to have all gotten the idea to dump their old technology into the inter-galactic void. If enough civilizations do that, gravity will do its thing and maybe all the space junk will glomp on to itself. Just like the islands of garbage floating in the world's oceans. Same idea.

But I didn't understand your point. — fishfry

I said: If A then B

you said: not B

conclusion: not A


Kaarlo Tuomi

But I was talking about computers brought up by accident, combinations of atoms, not by intelligence.

But I was talking about computers brought up by accident, combinations of atoms, not by intelligence. — Eugen

I'm sorry, I'm being facetious about a galaxy made of junk and I did not mean to confuse the issue.

This could be reduced to a simpler scenario: Might there be, anywhere in the universe outside our solar system, a Franklin Ace 100 personal computer (I used to have one) not made on Earth? :chin: