so how do you discriminate between an opinion and a preference? — Kaarlo Tuomi
if I understand you correctly, you are just using "preference" to mean the answer to a question that does not have an objectively true answer. — Kaarlo Tuomi
that would seem to require that you first consider whether or not the question has an objectively true answer. those questions that have objectively true answers go in one box where your philosophy deals with them, and answers that do not have objectively true answers go in the discard pile. correct me if I'm wrong. — Kaarlo Tuomi
however, what happens if I disagree with you on that single point, that the question has an objectively true answer. is my answer an opinion or a preference? — Kaarlo Tuomi
suppose, for example, I do not believe there is such a thing as objective reality. in that case EVERYTHING would be conditional and subjective. in this case it would not be objectively true that Paris is the capital of France because it isn't even objectively true that France exists. — Kaarlo Tuomi
this claims that there is ALWAYS a right answer. and that cannot be true if some answers are only preferences. — Kaarlo Tuomi
I'm afraid this directly contradicts what you said earlier.No, because it's still objectively true that I prefer this and you prefer that... — Pfhorrest
which means that you consider your subjective preference to be objectively true.Preferences, being explicitly subjective... — Pfhorrest
it seems to me that if subjective really is "the state of a subject," then "Paris is the capital of France" is the state of a subject and therefore subjective. but you also said that "Paris is the capital of France" is objectively true. which suggests to me that there is no discernible distinction between subjective and objective.Preferences are subjective inasmuch as they are states of subjects. — Pfhorrest
That Paris is the capital of France, and that chocolate is my favorite flavor of ice cream, are both states of France and of me, respectively, and are both objectively true. — Pfhorrest
f you genuinely believe this and are not just jesting with me, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation because I am not clever enough, wise enough or sufficiently well-read or intellectually gymnastic to accommodate the idea that a subjective statement can be objectively true. — Kaarlo Tuomi
At least some objects are also subjects, and it is the being-of-that-kind-of-thing-in-the-first-person that makes up their subjectivity. — Pfhorrest
In other words, there is no object that corresponds with the first person. — Wayfarer
Ok, I agree, but the fact that he rejects answering unanswerable questions raises another question for me. How does he define whether a question is unanswerable? By searching his brain, and if the answer is "I don't know", the question is unanswerable?It’s the “no unquestionable answers” part that is meant to convey a kind of skepticism. The “no unanswerable questions” part is there to guard against skepticism going too far into nihilism. — Pfhorrest
It’s saying to not give up just because you haven’t answered a question yet. Assume there is some answer that you just haven’t found yet. And consequently give any possible answer a chance. But then (because no unquestionable answers either) test each of those possibilities and reject the ones that fail, and consequently discard any supposed possibilities that could not in principle ever be tested as meaningless, not even saying anything. — Pfhorrest
my favourite flavour of ice cream is strawberry, and that is my subjective opinion, and it can only ever be subjectively true. it is neither right nor wrong, — Kaarlo Tuomi
Ok, I agree, but the fact that he rejects answering unanswerable questions raises another question for me. How does he define whether a question is unanswerable? — Have some tea
It is persons are subjects of experience that they are designated 'beings'. And I maintain, beings are not 'objects' except for a metaphorical sense ('she became an object of obsession to him'.)
But designating 'beings' as 'conscious objects' is a disservice to both language and philosophy. — Wayfarer
If I told you that your favorite flavor of ice cream was pistachio, would I not be wrong? — Pfhorrest
if I told you that my favourite flavour of ice cream was strawberry, would you have any means by which you could determine, independently of me, whether or not the statement is true? — Kaarlo Tuomi
well, actually, I don't. and the reason is to be found in an earlier post in this thread but you dismissed it in a very superficial way so I'm not sure you even really took it in or thought about it.No, but you do. — Pfhorrest
which you dismissed with this...suppose, for example, I do not believe there is such a thing as objective reality. in that case EVERYTHING would be conditional and subjective. — Kaarlo Tuomi
since we are no longer discussing your philosophy, but mine, I think I should declare that I don't actually have a favourite flavour of ice cream. I don't understand what folk mean when they say, "my favourite [insert appropriate noun]." the expression is essentially gibberish to me, and when I say those words it is as though I were reading a story written in a foreign language, I suspect my audience might understand but I do not personally have a clue what it means.But I think that that antecedent belief is false, and so the consequent is not entailed. — Pfhorrest
I don't actually have a favourite flavour of ice cream. I don't understand what folk mean when they say, "my favourite [insert appropriate noun]." the expression is essentially gibberish to me, and when I say those words it is as though I were reading a story written in a foreign language, I suspect my audience might understand but I do not personally have a clue what it means. — Kaarlo Tuomi
everything really is conditional on some prior assumption or other, and usually on a whole pile of them that, for the most part, folk don't even realise they are making. — Kaarlo Tuomi
“I don’t know” is always an acceptable response, but “we can never know” never is. — Pfhorrest
In that case, every statement that something is your favorite flavor of ice cream is objectively false. — Pfhorrest
In that case, every statement that something is your favorite flavor of ice cream is objectively false. — Pfhorrest
In what context are you referring? In other words, are you suggesting there is an objective standard that precludes mystery, arbitrariness, subjectivity, and/or the unknown? Examples that are too numerous to mention include but are not limited to: paradox of time and self-reference, conscious existence, cosmological existence, Love, metaphysical will, ad nauseum. — 3017amen
But if it is subjectively true that one person does not like ice cream in general, how do you reconcile or preclude the arbitrariness behind the subjective truth with the objective truth of the statement? — 3017amen
And even if one did like ice cream, how could you objectively account for the feelings that person has about his love for ice cream? — 3017amen
demonstrating quite clearly that you still do not appreciate the difference between subjective and objective. it is literally impossible for any statement I make about my preference to be "objectively false". — Kaarlo Tuomi
don’t know what some of those are, but the ones I do understand I would say are perfectly compatible with my principles here. — Pfhorrest
can’t understand this question. — Pfhorrest
that would be a complex psychological question, and you’d have to ask an expert on that exactly how, but it would involve some kind of empirical observation like all scientific questions do. — Pfhorrest
What is it about my love of ice cream that makes it a correct opinion? — 3017amen
Does that qualify as an unanswerable question? If not please provide an objective explanation for the feelings I have for the love of ice cream. — 3017amen
It is a correct opinion that you love ice cream (assuming you actually do). Whether you love it or not is an objective fact. — Pfhorrest
Just because I don't know the answer doesn't mean there isn't one. That's the whole point of the principle this thread is about: never assume there is no answer, just because you don't know it yet. — Pfhorrest
But that would qualify as a subjective opinion that extends to arbitrary feelings of Love. If it wasn't it would mean the all people either like or dislike ice cream — 3017amen
In other words what if I only loved ice cream a little bit. How would you quantify a little bit? — 3017amen
But if I'm understanding that correctly you would reject unanswerable questions as a temporary state of existing. — 3017amen
In other words what domain is appropriate for the philosopher to study here? Is it some sort of synthetic a priori knowledge? — 3017amen
Not at all. I am 72 inches tall. That is an objective fact about me. It being an objective fact about me doesn’t mean that everybody is and always has been 72 inches tall. It just means that anyone who says I am a different height is wrong . — Pfhorrest
Objectivists means that whether an opinion is right or wrong doesn’t depend on who you ask. It absolutely can and must depend on who or what (and what time and place etc) you’re asking about — Pfhorrest
And that would be an objective fact that you love i e cream just that much, just as it’s an objective fact that I am just this tall. — Pfhorrest
would not call something that is only temporarily unanswered “unanswerable”, just unanswered. We can never know for sure if an unanswered question will ever be answered until it is, but my principle says to always proceed on the assumption that some day it can be. — Pfhorrest
The domain of philosophy isn’t “the unknown” or “the mysterious”. — Pfhorrest
How is that germane to the question about my love of ice cream? — 3017amen
How is it an objective fact that I love ice cream just a little bit? Quantify my partial love of ice cream objectively. — 3017amen
What does that really mean,? — 3017amen
true or false or unknown — 3017amen
That we haven’t invented a scale to measure it by doesn’t mean that there’s no particular amount that you love it. — Pfhorrest
This is the problem. “Unknown” isn’t an alternative to “true” and “false”. Something can be true but not known. Unknown isn’t UNKNOWABLE or NO-TRUTH-VALUE. — Pfhorrest
Does that qualify as an unanswerable question? It kind of seems so... Yet you would reject such a question. I'm confused. I thought you said objectivity solves everything,? — 3017amen
Could that mean that it's metaphysical? — 3017amen
I'm afraid you're comparing apples and oranges as it were. Of course that's an objective fact about your material physical existence. How is that germane to the question about my love of ice cream? — 3017amen
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