In fact it’s like there’s nothing there in the human mind at all. The idea, the fiction, is not the mind it’s a creation of the mind. So even the mind is a creation of the mind, another fiction. — Brett
Even if the outside world is merely a collection of fictions that happens to fit together, — Echarmion
And the obvious question is how something can create a fiction of itself. — Echarmion
That’s not quite what I said. The collection of fictions refers to my thoughts on technology. — Brett
That’s my point. All things we think of are fictions. What else could they be? — Brett
Edit: the idea of the mind being what it is is no more a fact than the idea of God, or democracy or equality. — Brett
In fact it’s like there’s nothing there in the human mind at all. The idea, the fiction, is not the mind it’s a creation of the mind. So even the mind is a creation of the mind, another fiction. — Brett
Democracy is no more or less an idea, or fiction, than the idea of God and heaven. — Brett
I do not believe the mind can be a creation of the mind. — fishfry
The mind is the only thing that can NOT be a creation of the mind. — fishfry
It's fashionable these days to claim the opposite, that we're programs running in a cosmic computer that has figured out how to implement an actual mind. — fishfry
Something we have no idea how to do because by definition, mind is subjective and is by definition not subject to science! — fishfry
The "I" remains a mystery. Nobody knows how to create an "I", or even how to know if anyone else besides them has got one.
But that's an even worse scenario. If solipsism is true and I'm the only one here, then I'm the one who cooked up 2020. This is all my fault! — fishfry
Would an idea disappear if two things happened: humans disappeared, or we no longer collectively believed in the idea. So the US Constituition exists because we all agree to accept it as fact, though it is obviously not a fact. It’s an agreed upon fiction.
An idea is a fiction. — Brett
Ideas must have evolved over time. What an idea is itself must have evolved. — Brett
The idea that what we think comes from the mind helps in creating a sense of stability, but it’s neither true or stable. The mind’s reflection on itself is inherently unstable and so too the ideas as a result. — Brett
By this I guess you’re suggesting that the mind is the source, or core, of what we are. But that doesn’t do it for me because the mind is still an idea. You equate “self” and “mind” in your quote by Descartes. Are they both the same thing? — Brett
Ideas must have evolved over time. What an idea is itself must have evolved.
— Brett
Must they? Isn't evolution just another idea? If all ideas are fiction, then so is evolution, and the idea that ideas evolve... — Echarmion
Yes, Mind is a fiction that we take to be true. The Mind that we imagine is not a physical Thing, but the name for a metaphysical process --- it's what the brain does. And one creation of the brain is a symbolic concept (idea) to represent brain function as-if it were a tangible object --- a stable thing.In fact it’s like there’s nothing there in the human mind at all. The idea, the fiction, is not the mind it’s a creation of the mind. So even the mind is a creation of the mind, another fiction. — Brett
You might be confused by my use of fiction. If I used concept it might help. I use fiction because it better explains the idea that ideas are agreed on to become “fact”. ‘All men are equal“ is not a fact. It’s an agreed on idea, a fiction. — Brett
You would disagree that ideas can evolve? — Brett
Yes, Mind is a fiction. The Mind that we imagine is not a physical Thing, but the name for a metaphysical process --- it's what the brain does. — Gnomon
And one creation of the brain is a symbolic concept (idea) to represent brain function as-if it were a tangible object. So the Mind concept is a self-reference. And if self-reference is itself reflected in thought, it becomes a hall-of-mirrors. Therefore, you are literally correct that "there's nothing there", it's only an intangible mental image. Ideas are not real things, but ideas about things and their operations. Oooops! This is beginning to sound like a hall-of-mirrors. — Gnomon
In this context "metaphysical" simply means "non-physical". A process or function is not a tangible object, but a mental image of change over time. If you think of the Brain as a machine, the Mind is its product, its output. For example : a physical automobile produces non-physical Transportation. If the Brain is a physical computer, the information it produces is its function, its output, its reason for being. Ideas are not physical objects, but metaphysical symbols that represent things (nouns) and actions (verbs) that we experience in the world. So, you could say that the Mind concept is a metaphysical (unreal, ideal) brain. :nerd:Brains are physical. If the mind is metaphysical, then how is it "what the brain does"? Is there a metaphysical brain? — Echarmion
Yes. I view Metaphysics (mind, consciousness, ideas) as more fundamental than Physics (things, objects, particles). That's the point of Panpsychism (all is mind). But that's a whole other thread. :joke:But isn't the brain itself just a construction of the mind? Which would mean that the mind is basic, not the brain. — Echarmion
In this context "metaphysical" simply means "non-physical". A process or function is not a tangible object, but a mental image of change over time. If you think of the Brain as a machine, the Mind is its product, its output. For example : a physical automobile produces non-physical Transportation. — Gnomon
If the Brain is a physical computer, the information it produces is its function, its output, its reason for being. — Gnomon
Ideas are not physical objects, but metaphysical symbols that represent things (nouns) and actions (verbs) that we experience in the world. So, you could say that the Mind concept is a metaphysical (unreal, ideal) brain. :nerd: — Gnomon
Metaphysics : 4. Physics refers to the things we perceive with the eye of the body. Meta-physics refers to the things we conceive with the eye of the mind. — Gnomon
In fact it’s like there’s nothing there in the human mind at all. The idea, the fiction, is not the mind it’s a creation of the mind. So even the mind is a creation of the mind, another fiction.
What exactly is going on here? — Brett
The "odd usage" is intentional, because it derives from an unconventional worldview. So it's true, that I am using the term "Metaphysical" in a sense closer to what Aristotle had in mind, not how it is commonly used today, to refer to ghosts, magic & spooky stuff. Like Information, Transportation is not a physical object, but an idea in a mind referring to the function of a thing that transports. It's like the difference between a noun and a verb.That's pretty odd usage of words. People don't usually refer to automobiles as "machines that produce metaphysical transportation". Really what you're doing is describing what the automobile does in terms of how it is used. — Echarmion
Actually, my theory is intended to be a solution to the "hard problem". It's obvious that what we call "Mind" or "Thought" are functions of physical brain processes. But the functions themselves are not material objects. Instead, Mind, Body, & Brain are all various forms of "Generic Information", which I call EnFormAction. When I said that "brain produces mind", my meaning was similar to the subtitle of Terrence Deacon's book : How Mind Emerged From Matter. But Matter, in turn, emerged from "Generic Information", which is mind-stuff.And of course the whole "brain produces mind" problem runs into the hard problem. — Echarmion
Yes. In the Enformationism worldview they are all metaphysical & Ideal : (Forms (ideas, concepts, definitions, designs).What's specifically meta-physical about ideas? Aren't you just equating the terms "non-physical", "metaphysical" and "mental"? — Echarmion
My usage does reflect both "Physics" (nature) and "Meta" (beyond). Literally, it means "super-natural". But in my theory, I try to avid the typical otherworldly connotations of that term. Instead, Metaphysics is the foundation & source of both Physics (matter, energy) and Mind (consciousness, information) as we know them in Nature. The Enformationism worldview turns the ancient incompatible worldviews of Materialism and Spiritualism into an integrated whole. If you find that hard to believe, we can explore further. :joke:I don't like this definition. It seems identical to mental. Metaphysics refers to physics and meta. The usage should reflect those component words to avoid confusion. — Echarmion
By this I guess you’re suggesting that the mind is the source, or core, of what we are. But that doesn’t do it for me because the mind is still an idea. You equate “self” and “mind” in your quote by Descartes. Are they both the same thing? — Brett
I agree that this is hard to take. You could just as easily substitute God in there. — Brett
My problem is that science is an idea, a fiction, of the mind. So many ideas coalesce that add up to science. Therefore it cannot be subject to science. — Brett
Yes, so there cannot be an “I”, true? — Brett
There is another angle which is that our behaviour is determined by hormones, genes and synapsis, rather than free will. — Brett
So there is no “I” except the one created, the fictional “I”. — Brett
The only way to encounter the unknowable is to quieten the mind, to not ask the question. I can only see two ways of doing this: action, which shuts down the cognitive mind, or sleeping, when the mind ceases to think and what we get instead are dreams, almost an unconscious language, which of course we don’t understand. — Brett
↪fishfry
A caterpillar has a metaphysics.
— fishfry
What do you mean? — Brett
I have many dreams I don't understand. Plots, characters, situations, dialog, dilemmas for me (always the protagonist) to solve. I had one this morning. Perhaps it's a nonphysical realm trying to tell me something, if only I could understand. — fishfry
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