that claimed something along the lines of: that every sufficiently advanced civilisation will eventually construct a universe simulation. — Kaarlo Tuomi
1. what does having made a simulated universe say about the civilisation that made it? — Kaarlo Tuomi
2. given that the simulation is, or should be, undetectable by those inside it, how, precisely, does its existence communicate anything to anyone else? — Kaarlo Tuomi
Simulations bridge physical distances. You can do pretty much anything without going anywhere, so the energy savings would be substantial.
The actual cosmic distance between planets likely makes traveling to other solar systems untenable, so naturally one would expand a sense of inner space with simulations. — Nils Loc
I can't personally imagine how A would construct a simulation of their own universe that includes themselves, but that's probably a limitation of my imagination rather than of your description. — Kaarlo Tuomi
You can't imagine aliens in VR — Nils Loc
I can't imagine aliens inside the VR they had created. by analogy, I don't expect to meet Bill Gates inside the Microsoft Flight Simulator. there might be a virtual Bill Gates, or a hologram of Bill Gates, but not the actual Bill Gates. — Kaarlo Tuomi
It isn't that you can't imagine it as much as you don't wish to consider such a scenario in this discussion. — Nils Loc
If you are meeting Bill Gates via Skype, are you really meeting Bill Gates? — Nils Loc
I think of a person as inhabiting a universe. then anything that person constructs must be inside the universe they inhabit. I cannot envisage how they would then get inside the universe they just constructed. — Kaarlo Tuomi
1. what does having made a simulated universe say about the civilisation that made it? — Kaarlo Tuomi
It reflects progress and expectation. To simulate a universe in which the civilization is reflected implies uncertainty on the part of the creators. Man is looking for ways to survive, so then the simulation will reflect overlooked damaging properties. — Francesco
There is no way a simulation could duplicate the complexity of the actual universe. — Nils Loc
I should think that an advanced civilization would have long since recognized there is at least one thing that cannot be simulated, the universe. I, myself, happen to be a member of that civilization. If you're not, can you describe just how you might go about simulating the universe? — tim wood
no, that isn't it at all. I genuinely cannot imagine how anyone can physically construct the universe in which they live.
this is largely because I think of a person as inhabiting a universe. then anything that person constructs must be inside the universe they inhabit. I cannot envisage how they would then get inside the universe they just constructed.
but, like I said, that is probably more to do with the limits of my imagination than anything else.
Perhaps if you learn how to unleash your imagination (free it from the Western mindset) you might be able to. Before I describe the way I see it, I will point out that Hindu mythology has seen it this way for millennia and this is why the various deities you will find in Hinduism and Bhuddism have fantastical properties. Because this way of viewing reality is foundational to their religion and mysticism.
If you allow for the possibility of beings being able to traverse dimensions then you have a means to solve the conundrum of how the creator of a universe can inhabit that universe. A being creates a three dimensional universe while inhabiting a fourth, or fifth dimensional universe. Then steps down to become present in the three dimensional universe via some appropriate vehicle (a human body).
(The reality in the mythology is more complex than this, but that is essentially what is envisaged)
Also it helps to free your imagination from the conditioning about physical material and rigid time and space. So for example I imagine my self, my being, as a constellation of beings from many different dimensions and scales, all cooperating as one, from entities the size of an atom to entities the size of a galaxy for example, each playing a role which is their nature, within me, outside the rigid three dimensional universe I experience. So physical material, time, scale as I experience them are a construct/simulation produced and maintained by the activity of that constellation of beings.
So for example, every utterance from my mouth reverberates across the universe for all eternity and is imbued with the vibrations of all the other utterances uttered by all the other beings. Not just physically, but also subjectively.
thank you very much for engaging.A being creates a three dimensional universe while inhabiting a fourth, or fifth dimensional universe. Then steps down to become present in the three dimensional universe via some appropriate vehicle (a human body).
Yes, I have come across this mythology.why the Amazonian indians thought god had red hair.
A fifth dimensional being might have numerous reasons to create, or go to a 3 dimensional universe. Like a fertile ground for seeding fledgling beings for example, which might occasionally require assistance, weeding. — Punshhh
what can they then do with the knowledge they have acquired?
they cannot wind back the clock on their own civilisation to start again from the beginning, they cannot recreate themselves anew in their own universe so that they can experience first hand this new and hopeful future. they cannot, as far as I can see, use this knowledge in any way that benefits them at all. this knowledge can only be used to benefit some other civilisation that exists in a simulation created by them. — Kaarlo Tuomi
1. what does having made a simulated universe say about the civilisation that made it?
2. given that the simulation is, or should be, undetectable by those inside it, how, precisely, does its existence communicate anything to anyone else? — Kaarlo Tuomi
many years ago when I was a small boy who had first heard about molecules I had this idea that our universe could be a molecule in the toenail of a giant. I don't know why it had to be his toenail, but there you go, and it fascinated me for a while. I'm not sure that a naturally occurring phenomenon can strictly speaking be called a simulation, unless you want to think of a polar bear as a particularly inept simulation of a pussy cat, but this is a stunningly original idea that I will have to spend a lot of time thinking about and will probably return to again and again. thank you very much.Simulation might be a part of nature. Perhaps folk who think on it should look to ways it might be happening in nature, rather than via computation. — Punshhh
this suggested to me that Nils was thinking of something completely different, but I was not able to figure out what he was imagining, and that, on its own blew my mind. what was he thinking about, how could a civilisation construct their own universe? this was a very difficult problem for me and I spent a long time thinking he meant that they had copied their own universe so that the people inside the simulation were simulations of themselves rather than their actual selves.The ones inside it are presumably the ones who made it. — Nils Loc
this really helped me to focus on the civilisation doing the simulating, who they were and why they were doing this and why there needs to be urgency to their work and what motivates them and drives them. before this post they were just cookie-cutter characters that were in my story because I needed a villain, but after this post they became people with hopes and dreams the reader can sympathise with so that you might in some sense want them to succeed. the reader is now conflicted because she can no longer be certain, is Alan a victim, or is his suffering necessary for the survival of a whole civilisation?It reflects progress and expectation. To simulate a universe in which the civilization is reflected implies uncertainty on the part of the creators. Man is looking for ways to survive, so then the simulation will reflect overlooked damaging properties. If these are identified (due to the revealing nature of complexity), updates become eventually applied, ending in absolute resolution. — Francesco
this interesting insight created a new strand to my story where the simulators no longer agree on why they are doing the simulation in the first place. some of them think of it as a survival strategy, while others see it as pure science. this is like Elon Musk's Mars mission, he thinks he is building a rocket for going to Mars but I doubt there is a single human prepared to get in it and actually go there but the science aspects of it with reusable rockets and landing stage one boosters vertically on a floating barge 200 miles out to sea are utterly fascinating.when a quantum leap breaks the symmetry of progress, it would be like discovering prime numbers in nature. Usually this implodes the symmetrical decimation into natural standards which is of course impossible as we do not understand the nature of time fully. — Francesco
this is a very interesting point because as far as I am aware, singularity has three or four different definitions, and Francesco could be referring to more than one of them. singularity is the point at the centre of a black hole to which everything inside the event horizon is attracted. and singularity is also the (fictional) point at which a human consciousness merges with a computer. and singularity is also a hypothetical point in time at which technological growth becomes uncontrollable and irreversible. and there was this one time at band camp... maybe later.Its easy to model singularity, but nobody in the simulation has ever actually seen it, let alone construct it in the beginning with a beginning. — Francesco
this is an extremely interesting question and is at the heart of Alan's problem. how much information is required to make something true. I've never been to New Zealand but I am reasonably sure it is there, to the extent that I would be prepared to say that Wellington is the capital of New Zealand, and I would even say that it is a fact. but I can't prove it beyond the intellectually challenged process of "appeal to authority." so if my knowledge of the universe is merely stuff I read in books why don't Never Never Land, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy also exist? the characters in my story will have to wrestle with these questions once Alan reveals to them his suspicions.How much experience of this universe led you to consider this universe to be a universe? — Key
I cannot begin to express how grateful I am for this. it isn't relevant to my story because the creators are not fifth-dimensional beings, but it helped me see how other posters were approaching the question and what other possibilities there are I had not previously considered. really helpful, thank you.If you allow for the possibility of beings being able to traverse dimensions then you have a means to solve the conundrum of how the creator of a universe can inhabit that universe. A being creates a three dimensional universe while inhabiting a fourth, or fifth dimensional universe. Then steps down to become present in the three dimensional universe via some appropriate vehicle (a human body).
in my naivete I thought that "those" were quite obviously the inhabitants of the simulation. without getting bogged down in a philosophical quagmire they think they are real but are not. I don't play World of Warcraft but I would hazard a guess the characters in it don't think of themselves as being real. but the question is not silly or trivial because once again it revealed to me that there are other ways of looking at this, and that diversity of view points has been, far and away, the most valuable contribution so far. thank you, all of you.What do you mean by "those"? Is my World of Warcraft character it's own person now for some reason? — Outlander
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