I wish you the best, but I hear it is a very hard field. There is a lot of pressure if you want to be successful and not many get to publish or do research. But, if you truly enjoying teaching then you should be fine.

However, do not be discouraged if you go to a top tier school and end up teaching at a much lower school. Let your passion drive you and you cannot fail.

Do it because you love it and for no other reason. Do it because you'll regret it if you don't. Don't do it with some future aim in mind. Nothing could spoil the experience more!

Re the practical outlook, really the only job specific to the degree that the degree will help you acquire is a teaching gig. Note that it's basically required that you attain your PhD for that--even for teaching at a community college, say. That's because there's so much competition for the openings available that community colleges can easily have their pick of philosophy PhDs.

You'll also find it easier to get a teaching gig if you're a woman or a minority. If you're both, that's even better. That's because of the EEOC laws in the U.S., and the fact that the vast majority of people trying to find phil teaching positions in the U.S. are white males. There's a ton of competition for any opening if you're a white male.

Otherwise, a philosophy Bachelor's degree will only be of assistance for finding a job in the same way that any arbitrary Bachelor's degree would be. Some jobs are just looking for college graduates, but they don't specify a field.

As someone with multiple degrees in two very impractical fields--philosophy and music theory/composition, and despite the fact that I make a living with music, I'd actually recommend getting a degree in a field that has better job prospects, unless you know for sure that you want to teach philosophy, you're prepared to go all the way and get your PhD, and you're prepared to be as persistent and political--a combination of kissing ass and being cut-throat when necessary--as you have to be to eventually land a job.

Otherwise you can study philosophy in depth on your own, and you can take philosophy courses for electives. Major in a field that's hot at the moment for job prospects--something involving computers, or engineering, or medicine . . . anything that's practical and at least somewhat attractive to you.

While it's nice to just follow your passions, school in the U.S. costs a crapload of money that you'll likely be paying off for many years after you graduate. And it's not necessarily easy to find a job that you won't hate. It's better to do a job you don't love but that pays you well than it is to do a job you hate and that pays you $9-10 per hour or something like that. So it's wise to keep practical considerations in mind (at least unless you come from a wealthy family and you don't need to worry about any of that stuff).

I've given the idea much thought, literally, I mean it's philosophy. You know what I'm going to say. Basically, that it's been my hobby/outlet/intellectual defense mechanism for the majority of my life up until now. That I feel like a relative rockstar at cc. That I feel good at doing philosophy and analyzing arguments.

However, what is off-putting about this is that my interest in philosophy seems (like in many cases you read about) been bourne out of angst, depression, and apathy. This is worrying given the type of philosophy taught in U.S school's (highly analytic from what I understand and terse). In fact, there is now great overlap between cognitive science and philosophy from my superficial understanding. Something that combines two of my favorite obsessions (origin of mental illness', the breakdown or diminished capacity of an agent to 'reason' themselves out of such a state or even further to rationalize oneself into such a state and maintain being in it, and persistent apathy, along with obviously cognitive behavioral therapy). However, most lower class UC's don't offer such programs yet. I would be interested in any potential information on this subject if anyone can.

Back to the analytic stuff... from what I gather the majority of (U.S) philosophy has been predominantly oriented around analytic work. I find it quite terse, unappealing, and of little 'value' depending on your definition of Truth and what that even means. I know I sound like a cry baby that wants a perfect world and a perfect job to work in; but, I don't really see any alternatives. For the matter, my close friend graduated from UC Berkely in economics; however, is struggling to find a job to this day. Out of some 50 application, he only got 2-3 responses with a 'no'.

I also qualify for financial aid given my financial bracket so, I get lots of loans with generous repayment plans along with heavily subsidized education. I don't really care about money and for all I care I can live in debt but be happy doing something I like doing as well as being edifying to other people.

That's my take on the matter. If you see any romanticized notions of 'teaching', 'noble goal', or any such nonsense please let me know!

I love that Frankfurtian response and post-Aristotelian response, I should add also. One does not find reasons to love something. It simply is a state of being.

To go against it would be a folly and injustice upon natural law, one could say.

Made an account just to respond. Here's the deal.... As other people noted philosophy jobs are indeed few and far between. Statistically speaking most people won't finish grad school (most people who go into a phil. PhD program drop out within a few years) and - in most cases - unless you're going to a top-tier program you're probably looking at adjunct work which is going to pay like 35k a year in the US. Even going to a top school won't land you a job because it's academia and people want to see research potential and for you to have the right connections.

The depressing reality is that having a "passion" for philosophy should be what the field requires but it's really not. Roughly 80-90% of the phil. PhD's out there are not there because they were the best, brightest, or loved philosophy the most. They made it through their respective programs and landed jobs simply because they were the most organized and most willing to put up with crap. As a slight warning on that note: many philosophy profs feel burnt out after going through that process and it is not uncommon for them to quit or simply go through the motions for a paycheck later on in their careers.

So that's the relative downside of philosophy, but academia in general is a different ballgame. First, it is in fact an industry. You need to publish. Period. As an undergraduate from a small school the only way I could get recognition from a top-tier program was to publish two papers, present at academic conferences, and become the editor for a journal. In grad school I published four more papers, joined a serious research group, networked a lot, and tried to co-author wherever I could. These days I am quite happy to have a postdoc research position, but it required endless hours of writing, endless hours of criticism, endless hours of sitting through obnoxious meetings being given advice that didn't apply or would have hampered my work, multiple rejections from journals, multiple RR (Revise and Resubmit) decisions for work I didn't want to do any more. It was a chore.

If teaching is your thing, you better be really good. Like next level good. Because most jobs in the US are a mix of teaching, admin work, and research. Pure teaching positions exist, but they are hard to come by in the US. A former colleague of mine landed one recently, but he taught at Yale, was an excellent teacher all around, and had held down several prestigious positions around the US in order to be considered. Those positions usually don't pay that well by the way.

Another thing to remember about academia is that it is indeed cutthroat as someone stated above. It mellows out once you actually land a position, but I absolutely stepped on people during graduate school. Those who want to be good scholars are absolutely willing to throw their colleagues under the bus, steal work, take credit for ideas, bad-mouth each other to lower each others' standing, and systemically find ways to humiliate or degrade their fellow academics. I certainly did and I have absolutely no regrets. But if you want to ACTUALLY get somewhere in the field then be willing to hurt, hinder, lie, cheat, steal, and suck up to get where you want to go. It's not "bad" it's just the nature of the academic game.

Keep in mind that even with a mildly cutthroat attitude - it might not matter. For example: at a former institution of mine I was having a drink with our department chair and he just asked me directly what I thought of one of our assistant profs who was trying to get tenure. I didn't want him to be tenure track, so I straight up said I didn't like him and didn't think he'd be a valuable long term addition to the department. The department head agreed with me - we made fun of him for a bit and moved on. It's been years since then and guess what? That poor guy still isn't tenure track because he just wasn't liked enough by the right people.

Now this isn't to say the field is bad! It's just not for everybody. Personally I love it, but I've always liked the environment. I liked criticism and being able to criticize, I liked (most of) the work load, and I liked being around smart people like myself. But it's not a "noble" pursuit. So if you have pie-eyed dreams of being scholar where you get to sit in a library all day and happily read books and take notes - think again. If you don't publish you probably won't have a job these days or odds are not a great job. Unless you're tenured you'll work 60 hours a week, you'll deal some of the dumbest students in the world (and sometimes their overly involved parents), and you'll deal with an endless supply of bureaucratic red tape.

Phil. is a cool field, but it's just one field among many in an industry called academia. I guess the last bit of advice is simply that liking the field or being passionate about philosophy isn't good enough. You have to have a network, and you need to be more dedicated and more organized than your peers. The alternative is to be brilliant. Literally Wittgenstein levels of brilliance. Which odds are you're not or you'd be somewhere already. That's where dedication and organization come in - they can close the gap a little bit.

Wow, I don't know what to say. That's a pretty demolishing argument and I have no rebuttal. Thank you for your enlightening post. But, to be honest I'd hate to be in your shoes.

Well, I have to do something with my life and see myself in academia. There are plenty of other ways of making money that I have laid out in front of me.

In any case, there's always Europe and Germany... I've always been fond of moving there one day and assimilating in their Rawlsian society.

Hate to be in my shoes? Nah. It's great. I love what I do. It's just what academia is man.
Europe is about the same just more nepotism. Jobs for Americans are rare unless you're plugged in.

Well, so much for studying philosophy then, eh Thrasymachus?

Oh don't take it as discouragement! Just be ready for it. I mean you'll know whether academia is for you pretty damn fast upon getting to grad school (hence why most people drop out). Personally I've loved going through the process. But if you're thinking the the ivory tower is all that glamorous or all that tower-like... it's not. Like every other job it has pros and cons - it's suited for some personality types and not others. Ultimately it's not a bad way to make a living if you're lucky and it's fun working with intelligent people.

Well, my conception of philosophy in practice has changed considerably, at least here in the States. Although, I won't let you or anyone, in particular, have the last word on the matter. I hope you understand!

Thank you.

In any case, if academia for philosophy is that bad I might switch to psychology. It's not a bad choice and fits in pretty well with my line of interest.

Has anyone tips about that field of studies? I hope not as bad as with philosophy.

Well hold your horses really quick because I want to address your previous comment. You wrote "Well, my conception of philosophy in practice has changed considerably..." and I think maybe I wasn't entirely clear in my first response.

My advisor once gave me some advice that I'll pass on to you here: there is a big difference between "doing philosophy" and academia - the first is type of critical inquiry into various aspects of life and the latter is a job. Socrates wasn't an academic, in fact by modern standards many great philosophical thinkers of the past weren't academics in a formal or procedural sense. If you want to practice philosophy or "do" philosophy, you don't need to go to grad school. Instead read books, hang out on websites like this, talk with your family and friends about topics that interest you. Academia is a job where you are paid by an institution to produce research, bring prestige to your university, or just keep up enrollment.

There is a pervasive myth from outsiders looking in that academia is somehow conceptually pure in how it approaches a field, but what I was trying to point out is that it's essentially 10 years of job training. At the end of which you walk away as an expert in something and are expected to work and produce for your place of business (usually a university). It's like going into marketing and being one of only a few people in the world who knows everything about your product. It's a great vocation, but it is just that - a vocation. That's different than loving philosophy or wanting to practice it. You don't need a degree or an academic position in order to be passionate about a subject - often times its better to have neither.

Awesome post. Thanks for joining to share this. I thought about that path once myself, decided to go for math, afraid that it would kill my joy in philosophy. Sounds like I made the right move...

I don't really care about money and for all I care I can live in debt but be happy doing something I like doing as well as being edifying to other people. — Question

Become a philosophy moderator; you get to be penniless, do philosophy, and be edifying. Or if you are really selfless, any of the caring professions will give you the same except for the philosophy.

But as Carbon indicates, academic philosophy is not edifying. Psychology is not a cure either, though. Having studied both, I became a cleaner, which is the most edifying job in the world.

Hah! So discouraging all these folks. Look friend. If you want you can study philosophy, but do take into account what these people say, and prepare yourself. Learn some other skills. Learn programming at the same time. Or start writing articles and commentary on current issues. Send them to different magazines or online publishing places. Keep a blog. Learn to trade stocks. Learn painting, and produce artworks. Sell them and advertise them online. Etc. Learn things which can earn you a living without being stuck in a 9-5 job, which will give you time for doing philosophy. That means learn things which will be practically helpful or useful to someone else. Start small. Aim for 100 USD. That's what I aimed to make in a month when I quit my job - I ended up making about 10 times that the first month, and 20-25 times that ever since for about 2 months so far.

Those people advising you to get a specific degree because the job will pay great - that is very foolish. Not because you want to follow your passion though. Simply because there's no point in being a slave - and regardless what degree you do, you will end up a slave if that's all you do. Any job you take, you'll end up like a slave - in fact those bigger and better paying jobs - the bigger and heavier your chains will be. Not because you will actually work a lot - but because they will make you engage in a lot of activities which are useless, time-wasteful, make you go to lots of places, attend all sorts of pointless events, etc. . Most people probably do only 50% of the time useful work. The rest is messing around. I've started to grow a strong dislike for people who want to work in large corporations - nothing is more anti-thetical to a good life than submerging yourself in that superficial, competitive, lazy, and selfish environment.

So believe in yourself. Study and develop your own aptitudes and talents. And then have confidence in whatever you do. Demand to work on your terms from people who are interested in whatever you do. Refuse work if it's not on your terms. And so forth. I used to work as an engineer. I have an engineering degree too. I quit my job a few months ago (to be more exact 3 months ago). And I'm working by myself today as a web-developer - which I've learned by studying it and running my own sites by myself for a couple of years. I'm cashing in the equivalent of 25K/year monthly so far but I'm working probably less than 4 hours a day from my own house. If I wanted to, I could make a lot more if I spent more time. But Im not in a hurry - I have quite a bit saved up too. I prefer spending much more time reading and learning new things. Some people get a philosophy degree, and then they earn as much as I currently do working in academia on research that they don't truly care about, and they work 60+ hours a week with no time for studying what they're truly passionate about. I work less than 28 hours, from home, at my own pace, and under my own standards, and earn as much as they do.

The problem is to get where I got, you have to study - and work - and teach yourself skills. Learn how to make yourself valuable. Look after clients. Phone people up, etc. Whatever it takes. Most people aren't willing to go through that anxiety, nor through the time, loneliness, and hard-work. They want an easy life - go to a job, where they don't do much, finish at a fixed time, forget about work (no studying/learning after their work is done) etc. They give away their freedom for comfort. But freedom should never be given away - because if you give your freedom away, sooner or later you will have renounced your comfort too! People should be encouraged to develop their own skills, and become financially independent of the big, large companies. In fact, our whole economy should be restructured to offer and encourage small-scale independent producers. That's what real financial independence is about - having freedom, not having a lot of dough. And we're making a big mistake when we think that the large companies are efficient - they actually are not, at least from my experience working for a large construction company. They are very inefficient, and their people are very lazy, and they don't truly care about what they do - they just want that clock to move faster so that they can leave. They do work - but it's not outstanding work, it's inefficient work. Going through the motions as many have said. (Oh but I forgot to say that they have 20 million people to check each other's jobs afterwards... had they been efficient to begin with, they may not have needed that)

I worked as a cleaner for a good time for a movie theater. I have to say there is something very therapeutic about cleaning after other people. After a while, you gain respect for Asians and their desire for cleanliness.

Haha.

As much as I'd like to be a sanitation officer and walk around a giant landfill, I am still too ravaged by idealistic ideals at my age. I suspect time will eventually remedy that, and I hope so too...

So, after some mental deliberation and considering what has been mentioned here, I still want to follow through with a philosophy major because out of all the things that I could be doing in college, it would probably be the best choice for me to do so.

Other than philosophy there really anything else that engages my attention span for long enough for me to put in the work required to complete important assignments and homework related matters. Even if I decide to drop out after undergrad school or entering grad school, I think I'd be a much more happy person regardless than I am now (quite disappointed at not having a degree from college despite being intellectually driven). I also need a purpose in life to strive towards and philosophy can keep me entertained for a long time intellectually and psychologically. I also need to form some sense of identity at my age and being labeled as a philosopher or intellectual by a social institution like college would definitely make me feel less alienated and lonely in society. Teaching doesn't bother me. I come from a family of teachers from my mothers side so it's sort of a natural tendency for me to want to teach or at least wouldn't come as hard as long as I can become much more organized.

I will do some more talking with the Phil department at my local community college to either affirm or reinforce my decision and to get some feedback from professionals. For undergrad school I don't really care where I get into (UC system in California). If I do well (and I feel somewhat confident about this despite having a notoriously low self esteem and low self confidence), then I can pick some nice grad school in the area...

Any more input or advice appreciated. Any books I should read up on? I feel deficient in the logic area of philosophy and feel compelled to study it more. From what I gather quantum logics and many world interpretations of reality are quite in vogue. Are schools nowadays still analytic or have become more postmodern? What's the underlying interpretation used nowadays when analyzing material? Analytic/continental/postmodern/pragmatic/psychoanalytic?

If I may add a point, I would say that whatever you do, don't go into great debt to do it.

Hard to do that nowadays and given my financial situation. I know there are very favorable repayment terms and even debt forgiveness for students going all the way to teaching. Too early to say; but, I'm not afraid of debt at least not if I find something I love doing and doing it well.

Double major in a hard science.

Hello everyone,

I didn't want to reopen a discussion that is already going on and decided to continue inquiring the commenters of this topic.

Here is my case:

I am 37, I work full time for the government and my job includes tuition benefits (40%). I have a lot of free time to go for PHD in Philosophy, but I love creative writing. With my creative writing I get a lot of pleasure and some fame, but no money :) I am hard of hearing, also, and I don't know whether I will be able to teach (though I always loved teaching).

The only thing I know is that a PHD from the USA has a great reputation in my small country and in Europe. Is that a good reason to go for PHD? I have already two MA from the US, and I hope to complete all PHD requirements within three years... but I can't say that I am a hundred percent sure on that :)

Any advice is very welcome. Thank you!

It's good someone has re-opened this ancient thread. Carbon's commentaries are particularly interesting, as I received my degree fifty years ago and retired as professor of mathematics twenty years ago. If one contemplates going the distance, only commit yourself if you love to investigate and explore in the discipline. It's not uncommon for a grad student to do well in the coursework, but stumble in the final stretch - original research. I'm sure this is true in philosophy as well as math.

What are your reasons for wanting a philosophy degree? Are you wanting to start a career in the field? Pursuing a degree solely because of the reputation that comes with it seems odd to me. I switched from philosophy to psychology in college, but it was due to more practical reasons (pregnant girlfriend, no job, no “home,” etc.). I only have a B.A., but I can’t say I really regret my choice. I had plans of grad school and becoming a professor, but that wasn’t feasible at the time. I also think that I’ve been able to teach myself somewhat since I was able to take some beginners courses, I minored in philosophy. So personally I’m pretty satisfied that I’m able to both support myself and my family, as well as continue learning philosophy as a sort of hobby.

I am 37, I work full time for the government and my job includes tuition benefits (40%). I have a lot of free time to go for PHD in Philosophy, but I love creative writing. — Eros1982

With two MAs you well know the pleasures of writing for school.

and I hope to complete all PHD requirements within three years. — Eros1982

Three years, give or take. The only sure thing is if you don't, it won't. Education evolves from being a trip through the sausage factory from the POV of the sausage, to being a voyage of discovery. If you're that guy - who can take a voyage - go ahead! Maybe read Tennyson's Ulysses. As for teaching, can you say TA or RA?

You're 37. It has to be said: you're on the downward side of almost everything - excepting the pleasures and treasure of age, and they exist. Plan and execute accordingly.

I am a very complicated person... it may be the fault of my bad DNA, but I had bad life experiences as well.

First of all, I was not born hard of hearing.. if I was born hard of hearing I would have become a dentist right now (dentists don't need to hear :)

I went to college for international relations in Greece, because I could speak four languages when I was 18, but in my twenties I appeared with severe hearing loss and tinnitus in both ears, and from that time I was not sure anymore what I wanted to do and what I was able to do. So, it took almost five years to accept that I had become a different person and in those five hard years I somehow found peace in all kinds of books.

In the US I have a good job, but there are times I just want to pack and go back to my country, Albania. Since in Albania things are more difficult than here and I am the book nerd, somehow it passed my mind that with a PHD from the US (and my savings) I can do many good things in my country and feel very useful. In practice it might turn to be the opposite :)



I agree with what you said. I applied this year for an adjunct position somewhere, just to try how it feels without making my life much more complicated, and also I am thinking to apply for PHD and discuss how much time I can save before I enroll in any classes (I somehow feel that I can be accepted this year, if I pay from my pocket plus the tuition benefits from my job). If the adjunct position comes first, maybe I postpone the PHD and see for a year whether I like teaching in the field. Whatever happens, I definitely do not want to spend more than three years for the PHD. I have to make sure that is possible before I make any decision.

Anyway, thanks to all of you for your replies.

Whatever happens, I definitely do not want to spend more than three years for the PHD. I have to make sure that is possible before I make any decision. — Eros1982

From my experience, this may be possible if you take a full complement of courses and don't get stuck with your research project. The PhD is a research degree. If you teach part time it might take longer. My father received an MA in math in the late 1930s, was a statistician for the fed reserve and War Assets Administration, and returned to grad school at the U of Texas for a PhD in business statistics - which he completed in two years. In lieu of course work he was given credit for experience.

I have a lot of free time to go for PHD in Philosophy, but I love creative writing. With my creative writing I get a lot of pleasure and some fame, but no money — Eros1982

It probably won't bring you more money, but you could combine creative writing with philosophy and write a kind of philosophical "dialogue" like the ancient Greeks did, but intermixed with more modern narrative conventions, as a way of teaching/popularizing philosophical thinking.

I intended to do that once and started outlining it before realizing I have much more difficulty writing narrative and dialogue than I do essays, so I just turned that project into a series of essays instead.

Seeing that the film school that I was going to closed, I decided to go back to the university for my undergrad after taking some classes at community college. I'll be in my third year this fall. To be honest, the prospect of making any sort of career out of it seems to be incredibly daunting, especially since I got into sort of a spat with certain left-wing intellectuals over their assumed ascendency over the libertarian Left and the Anarchist movement, of which, though, as I do suffer from "psychosis", I did kind of flip out, I will say that the people who are actually involved with protests and not the academics who believe themselves to be behind them are who is to direct them, while I do find that the Situationist International's neurotic habit of impersonating the aristocracy to be kind of charming, to actually treat other people with the kind of intellectual and cultural supremacism that the aristocracy was prone to is still offensive, regardless as to just how left-wing a person's purported philosophy is, and that it is the responsibility of the publishers of a text to protect that author's work and not their audience, which are points that left-wing academics can neither plausibly deny nor allow themselves to take into any sort of consideration whatsoever, which tends to result in that they are met with total silence. Being said, though, I am willing to be a good sport and pretend like professional revolutionaries don't really expect for almost invariably precariously employed "pseudo-intellectuals", their words not mine, to do favors for them so that they can maintain their way of life. I have two years left and then I'll go to grad school. After that, I don't really have any idea as to what I'm supposed to do, seeing that my career is already shot, and I have such a marked disdain for the way that prestige makes people behave. I'll probably have to kind of invent something for myself to do. Who knows that'll be?

What I would suggest to you, though, is that, regardless as to how you feel about the cultural hegemony of the field, just ignore it and find something that you enjoy doing. What's the point of only really being able to deliver a somewhat vitrolic, but also somehow righteous, critique on Reddit?

What I would suggest to you, though, is that, regardless as to how you feel about the cultural hegemony of the field, just ignore it and find something that you enjoy doing. What's the point of only really being able to deliver a somewhat vitrolic, but also somehow righteous, critique on Reddit? — thewonder

I'd say you tend to take things too seriously.

As to whether you should major in philosophy, that's up to you. You should be aware that the discipline of academic philosophy is NOT the place to express your own idiosyncratic ideas and/or fight the establishment. Rather, you'd first have to spend years sucking up. Decades maybe. You should consider that.

Study philosophy if it interests you. Not because you think it aligns with any personal mission you may have in life. You'll find that it doesn't.

My two cents. For the record, I'm not a philosopher by trade or by education. But I think my response is pretty much on target.