• praxis
    6.5k


    :yikes: I neglected to realize that the Clinton administration was in the 90’s, two decades after you say term ‘identity politics’ was coined, and two decades into the working class becoming less expensive to capital class/government.
  • Number2018
    562
    The narrative any media follows is the what the audience wants to hear and what the owner wants to promote. Anything that challenges one or especially both is simply left out. You can observe that many news media that do classic investigative journalism do have the ability to make objective and high standard journalism and reporting, however in today's climate that is rare. So better for Fox News to report on "Joe Biden supporters" rioting in Portland.ssu

    It is difficult to find out what is actually going on in Portland right now. What is your view?
    As far as I see, there are two major narratives in the media: peaceful protesters vs. rioters; both are completely incompatible.
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    People are laying siege to a federal courthouse in Portland. Looks like a war zone.

    Here is a livestream from Sunday.

  • ssu
    8.7k
    It is difficult to find out what is actually going on in Portland right now. What is your view?
    As far as I see, there are two major narratives in the media: peaceful protesters vs. rioters; both are completely incompatible.
    Number2018
    I wonder why it is so difficult to report that there are a) peaceful protesters, those especially during the day who do follow curfews etc. b) protesters that will get agitated c) provocateurs who do love a riot, prepare and train for the event d) looters, who will use the opportunity to loot when the police isn't stopping them because, why not? Protests and demonstrations are made of various people with different agendas if they are of any larger size. Especially if the groups c) or d) are allowed to operate, they surely will do that. And there has to be only a tiny group. Yet I'm not seeing helicopter footage of Portland or Seattle burning, so I do believe it really is concentrated on limited areas with in the end not many people involved.

    The same could be said about the protests themselves. First there is the cause of police brutality and killing of George Floyd itself. The there is the "official" Black Lives Matter movement which has it's own peculiar agenda. I don't think it ends just there: when you have a botched pandemic response in the US which has caused massive unemployment, there are other reasons for people to be unhappy and if one way is to go and participate in a protest, there's your answer.

    But note that rioting doesn't even have to have a clear dedicated cause. Once when young people get the habit of confronting the police and they have nothing to do, riots can erupt. I remember in Sweden few years ago the media was totally clueless why there were youth riots with absolutely no movement behind it. In the end, they just died down. Sociologists had a lot of explaining to do.

    Yet unlike says, for example the above coverage really doesn't look like a war zone. Actual war zones are empty of people. War zones look like the following. Notice the huge difference to coverage from US cities:

  • Number2018
    562
    People are laying siege to a federal courthouse in Portland. Looks like a war zone.NOS4A2

    If this is a true report, and since the protest in Portland is going on for 60 days, most likely that it has
    a kind of a clear cause, differently from what ssu thinks.
    that rioting doesn't even have to have a clear dedicated cause. Once when young people get the habit of confronting the police and they have nothing to do, riots can eruptssu
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    The war zone metaphor refers mostly to the tactics of those involved—teargas, projectiles, makeshift explosives, riot shields—and the resultant destruction and chaos. You’re right, though, that it is not the best metaphor, and accurate phrases such as “mob violence“, “riot“, and dare I say “terrorism“ suffice.

    It takes a sheer act of lunacy to claim a riot is a peaceful protest. Euphemisms such as “mostly-peaceful protests” serves to disguise the violence and anarchy, which is what everyone is objecting to in the first place. Everyone gets that there are peaceful protests occurring and for valid reasons, but no one is really objecting to peaceful protesting( for god sake anyone who dare say otherwise is met with the most hostile bigotry). People are objecting to the violence and intimidation against the innocent, none of whom have anything to do with the death of George Floyd.

    Because none of their targets have anything to do with the injustice against Floyd, there must be some other belief motivating these actions, or else they are blinded by sheer stupidity and propaganda. This is culture war stuff. This is politics in the street. If it goes on much longer it is simply insurrection, and one lacking any ethical cause.
  • Anaxagoras
    433
    People are objecting to the violence and intimidation against the innocent, none of whom have anything to do with the death of George Floyd.NOS4A2

    However, I noticed that often times right-wing media tends to edit and skew public opinion using other outlets as sources of validity for example case in point:



    there must be some other belief motivating these actions, or else they are blinded by sheer stupidity and propaganda. This is culture war stuff. This is politics in the street. If it goes on much longer it is simply insurrection, and one lacking any ethical cause.NOS4A2

    MLK said:

    “A riot,” King said, “is the language of the unheard, And, what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the economic plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years.”

    When black Americans argue for the government to hold police accountable for brutality you will have degenerates who will dissent violently This is the crux of why people damage property. However, some people are indeed opportunistic just as there are claims by some, that white nationalists are inciting these riots to cover up their motives to traffic drugs (Source:https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-supremacist-trying-to-incite-floyd-rioting/571932272/).

    These protests have drawn a plethora of people and like any group that has to speak out there will always be those with alternative methods to spread dissent.
  • ssu
    8.7k
    If this is a true report, and since the protest in Portland is going on for 60 days, most likely that it has
    a kind of a clear cause, differently from what ssu thinks.
    Number2018
    That wasn't my intention to say, so sorry if I made myself unclear.

    In this case there obviously is a clear case, the case of George Floyd and also movements like the BLM behind it. However it's obvious that if this is the reason for the protests, there are obviously many with different agendas involved. The example of Sweden was a different example, but I gave it to show that clashes with the authorities can emerge and continue for various reasons...or even without them, once they get going.
  • Number2018
    562
    Once when young people get the habit of confronting the police and they have nothing to do, riots can erupt. I remember in Sweden few years ago the media was totally clueless why there were youth riots with absolutely no movement behind it. In the end, they just died down. Sociologists had a lot of explaining to do.ssu
    There were a few accounts of the riots in Sweden. Professor of political science at the University of Uppsala, Tommy Möller wrote in an op-ed:
    "Unless the integration of the newcomers succeeds better, in the long run, the social glue that makes a democratic welfare society of our kind possible risks being torn apart." Accordingly, there are huge gaps in the social fabric, so that various groups create alienated communities. Is that reasonable to hypothesize that similar processes take place in the US right now? Maybe it could explain why courthouses have become the targets of systemic attacks.
  • ssu
    8.7k
    Is that reasonable to hypothesize that similar processes take place in the US right now? Maybe it could explain why courthouses have become the targets of systemic attacks.Number2018
    Blacks have been in the US for four hundred years and you have had slavery, so it's a bit different. Sweden hasn't had slavery (even if Swedish ships participated in the slave trade) and it hasn't had colonies in Africa or Asia. Present day non-European minorities are a new thing (Finns as an ethnic minority don't create problems).

    I guess the attacks on a court-house means that the legal system is viewed as racist or something.
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    MLK was committed to non-violence and believed riots intensified the fears of the white community while relieving their guilt. The temper-tantrum excuse is no longer viable.

    Besides, committing mob violence and vandalism against people who do not deserve it is cruel. The weeks of violence and civil unrest, all of it at the expense of locals and the tax-payer, has made a world already coping with a pandemic far worse.
  • Anaxagoras
    433
    Besides, committing mob violence and vandalism against people who do not deserve it is cruel.NOS4A2

    This is the difference between a riot and protest, People often times conflate the two.
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