When one finds oneself between two imperfect choices all one can do is choose the lesser of two evils. The solution to the endless situation is to make the choice and act on it.

Ideally Iraq would control it's own destiny and not be under the influence of any outside power. Regrettably, the last time it had that power it used it to invade it's neighbors, resulting in a response which now leaves it relatively powerless.

All across the Middle East, and the rest of the world too, the only real solution is for citizens to take responsibility for their own country. This will typically require the spilling of blood to overthrow those who would steal their freedom. I've been encouraged to see brave Iraqis protesting against their government when it doesn't serve their interests. Brave Iranians are doing the same.

In both cases, nobody else can really win the war against the despots for you.

To wider the lens to the larger global picture....

The next century will be defined by a struggle between the world's oldest democracy and the largest dictatorship in world history. The vast majority of Americans would be proud to have Iraqis as allies in that struggle. But it's your choice.

well the problem is, the people are generally ignorant and will stay such for a long time, because of the current governments, many see this as america's fault and that america should fix it which I find quite, depressing, people are losing hope for a saviour once again,

Lebanon offers the rest of us an important lesson.

If I understand correctly, the recent tragic super explosion was caused by highly explosive materials which were shoved in to a warehouse and then largely forgotten. These materials were just sitting there patiently, waiting for somebody to screw up. And then somebody did.

The whole world is in that exact same situation, on a vastly larger scale.

well the problem is, the people are generally ignorant — Augustusea

Well, to be fair, large numbers of both Iraqis and Iranians have put their lives on the line repeatedly in demonstrating against governments willing to shoot them down in the streets. Few people in America or Europe have those kind of balls, so maybe we should give credit where it is due.

those same people right now are infighting over trivial issues,
I was there with them once, they're too hopeful, refused to politicize when it was their only solution, thats why i see it as endless, there is no one willing to do anything, even those that do want to do something are doomed to do it wrongly and fail

those same people right now are infighting over trivial issues — Augustusea

We would never do that in America. Except every day for our entire history. Other than that, NEVER! :-)

well you aren't americans if you don't fight constantly :lol:
for us its not constant

even those that do want to do something are doomed to do it wrongly and fail — Augustusea

Every country does it wrong over and over and over again until they finally die or succeed.

Thomas Jefferson declared that "all men are created equal". Except for those who don't own land, the native peoples we were busy exterminating, the millions we enslaved, and of course, don't be silly, women aren't men!

well you aren't americans if you don't fight constantly :lol:
for us its not constant — Augustusea

Who are you referring to by "us"? What's your tribe?

Young Iraqis, we dont do tribes thats boomer stuff

Sorry, my bad, you said who you were in the very first post. I got confused and thought you were a new person entering the thread. Thanks for setting me straight, will read more carefully.

Ok then, so until Iraq can retake control of it's destiny, who do you prefer? Americans or Iranians?

If you don't want Iraq to become more of a proxy war battle field between the two, it seems the solution would be to pick one and throw the other one out. Your thoughts?

we seem to be caught between Iranian imperialism and the western one,
one tries to impose its theocratic system upon us, the other doesnt give two shit just wants their military here, seems like an endless situation, what are your thoughts? — Augustusea

Augustusea,

It is great that you start looking at the problem from these two actors, not the very typical viewpoint of Westerners criticizing their own governments and thus rather having unintentionally a condescending attitude towards people living in the Middle East (as if they don't have their own agendas in the conflict).

I think the Shia / Sunni divide and the various sides taken by Middle Eastern actors is important. And the fact that some of the Gulf Cooperation Council members have nearly gone to war with each other. The term Shia crescent coined by king Abdullah of Jordan in 2004 gives one narrative the conflict, but the issue really hasn't been of Iran trying to conquer the Shia crescent. More like Iran simply has getting involved in countries like Iraq, Syria and Lebanon (and Yemen). Likely because, well, it supposed to be revolutionary and offence might be the best defence, as they say.

I would compare the events now in the Middle East to the Spanish Civil war, where Spain obviously had it's huge domestic problems which after a failed coup ended up in a bloody civil war, but then at the time you also had countries extremely eager to get involved with the civil war (with Italy and Germany on one side and Soviet Union on the other). There presence of these powers made the fight very ideological which spawn then people like George Orwell to volunteer for the fight, and something similar you see happening now in the Middle East. Syria and Yemen, or in fact Iraq, might be seen as pieces on the chess board to be won or lost.

I think that behind all of the turmoil is that not only has the Cold War ended, but also the US lead alliance has fallen into total disarray as the US train wreck of a foreign policy has reached the train wreck stage. The US could hold it together when your ex-leader Saddam Hussein decided to solve the finance problem after a ruinous war with Iran by annexing a small rich neighbor Kuwait. Then even Syria joined as an ally the US lead coalition. Then the final train wreck happened with the 2003 war. And why I call this a trainwreck is that at first the Middle East started with the Baghdad pact and SEATO, with Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Pakistan being all allies. It seems like in the Middle East US allies tend to become it's worst enemies, apart from Israel.

Now you have in Libya supposed allies of the US being at different sides. As Egypt has it's own problems and Iraq as you know is a mess, Saudi Arabia and Iran try to compete which one is top of the hill if the US really would leave the area.

what are your thoughts on the middle east, — Augustusea

My thoughts on the middle east is that it is one of the places on the planet where civilization "as we know it" first appeared. But middle-easterners have been fucking it up from day one to the present. I've met middle-easterners; I've known middle-easterners; and it seems to me that being one is just a disease of intellect and spirit. Maybe yourself, being one, can give some rational account of it. And recent imperialism won't do - although it certainly has not helped - because you people have been at it for at least 7000 years, long before there ever was a Europe.

Or this way, what are your thoughts on why, or how, the middle east has so perfectly consistently managed to be a horror of a place for so long?

None of us, no place, being perfect, But in a world that strives, why, with the head start that you all had, have you mucked it so thoroughly badly?

honestly I think there are a few historical events that lead to our inevitable downfall and collapse, those being the first islamic Invasion, then al ghazali being born, then the mongols,
even during islamic times (abbasid) we were doing relatively great compared to europe or asia,
but after the mongols and ghazali it inevitably went downhill, as tribals and barbarians would take over this piece of land then ottomans,
until ww1 where everything went well until first nazis came, then the cold war started and we got fucked over hard by that,
we went from sending europe ww2 aid to getting a new bomb each day,
and from that old time of post mongols, people were building up idiocy, till the point where they have become completely illogical and ignorant rn, most of the population still believes in magic curing cancer ffs
so the reason is mainly we got some dumb circumstances in a bad timing, which kickstarted a cycle of ignorance, and that cycle couldnt be broken because of how crappy outside influence was

Quite an extraordinarily asinine post. This is the quintessential example of how racial histories justify racism. When you can't see individuals as individuals, this is the consequence.

From wiki:
"His 11th century book titled The Incoherence of the Philosophers marks a major turn in Islamic epistemology. The encounter with skepticism led al-Ghazali to investigate a form of theological occasionalism, or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present will of God.

In the next century, Averroes drafted a lengthy rebuttal of al-Ghazali's Incoherence entitled The Incoherence of the Incoherence; however, the epistemological course of Islamic thought had already been set. Al-Ghazali gave as an example of the illusion of independent laws of cause the fact that cotton burns when coming into contact with fire. While it might seem as though a natural law was at work, it happened each and every time only because God willed it to happen—the event was "a direct product of divine intervention as any more attention grabbing miracle". Averroes, by contrast insisted while God created the natural law, humans "could more usefully say that fire caused cotton to burn—because creation had a pattern that they could discern.""
----

If my own age did not dictate that I stay more in the immediate vicinity of my own concerns - within a diminishing ambit and without the luxury of "all the time in the world," the debate above looks like it might be of very great interest. But where the wind-blown seas of beliefs have met the hard coasts of reality, there have always been waves of every size to play in - or die in.

I suppose my point above is that while most of the worlds places have gone through some testosterone-fueled murderous adolescence, most have evolved - grown up - at least to a point where personal freedom and liberty is at least to some degree in consideration - clearly a lot more growth needed!

And no doubt the middle east is full of people with just those ideas, and to be sure has been at times the worlds' steward and keeper of western wisdom. But then, Yasar Arrafat, or the leader of Isis, or the murderous MBS. Existing as I do in the relative light of American ideology, am I mistaking a streetlight's small circle of light for the daytime?

On the eve of the first gulf war, a wise old Jerusalem pen-pal told me it would be a disaster - the disaster it has turned out to be. Prescient she was, but why did it have to be that way?

An interesting idea from the other day - that in memory I can only approximate (and not yet source) - that many characteristic problems in behaviour and thinking in persons, groups, institutions, and nations arise out of having been defeated. I can see that even if I do not altogether understand it. Perhaps what's needed is a kind of cultural rehab for defeated peoples, along the lines of that which has enabled Japan and Germany and Italy to reclaim their positions, their respective debts being satisfied, as well as they can be.

But you gave fair and considered answer, and I appreciate that!

Quite an extraordinarily asinine post. This is the quintessential example of how racial histories justify racism. When you can't see individuals as individuals, this is the consequence. — Judaka

Quite an extraordinarily asinine - or at least self-serving - reading. The OP asked for my thoughts, and I responded with my thoughts. And I think so far we have treated each other with respect, and on my side appreciation. And indeed there are individuals, but individuals are not all that there is. So far the discussion has been between adults. Grow up, then, and make mature contribution, or be seen and not heard!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending OP, he can take care of himself. Your earlier post is ludicrously stupid, the way you approach history is worse than that of a child. You have 4.9k posts, how can someone think so much to end up with so little?

Even within America, a supposed democracy, your impact is unnoticeable. What accomplishments would you like to be accredited with? What atrocities do you wish to claim responsibility for? As an American.

Even within America, a supposed democracy, your impact is unnoticeable. What accomplishments would you like to be accredited with? What atrocities do you wish to claim responsibility for? As an American. — Judaka

The American evolution of a set of ideas, not altogether original, but synthesized with its own stamp. And no one who knows what the words mean supposes America a democracy, that being just a convenient fiction. And manifest and many failures aside - although they shouldn't be, and maybe we Americans have entered an era of long-overdue acknowledgement and reconciliation - when most of the world's people think freedom, they think America.

I took quite a bit of ancient history - most of the details of which I've forgot. I used to know, for example, which Sargon was which and when, and where.

So,

Your earlier post is ludicrously stupid, the way you approach history is worse than that of a child. — Judaka

Please lend some substance to your invective. Perhaps in particular, such objections you might have to my thinking of the middle east as being incessantly war-torn since just about always.

When it comes to politics people who base their opinions on wikipedia and propagandist history will make ludicrous generalisations and as pointed out treat people as a homogenous group and not individuals and multiple classes. Let's be real here,the ruling class/the wealthy are those who dictate the general detailed thrust of development and policy as long as they have the backing of a majority of the populace.
In the middle east there is a plurality of ethnic wealthy elites with ruling potential and populist support. That is why the strongman leader found support there. With US intervention/theft this blew the door wide open for civil conflict and power struggles fuelled and helped by Saudi US and Iranian resources. As things have settled the media and disgruntled elites will always exaggerate the situation on the ground for political purposes.
My best advise would be to be an individual and dont expect your govt to nanny you or have your best interests at heart. Covid shows precisely how incorrigbly selfish and corrupt all govts are. Even the good ol US of A.
US Govts shit is just as stinky as Iraqs. Nay,worse!

@Judaka :up:

US Govts shit is just as stinky as Iraqs. Nay,worse! — Asif

Always bigger and better. Alas!

Middle east being war torn?
Who funded and founded Israel? Who invaded Lebanon,Iraq and funded ISIS. Who funded hizbollah and Hamas? The US Saudi and Iran really helped exacerbate and create a lot of these conflicts.
The US admin freedom? They have been involved in umpteen conflicts and instigated conflict all around the world. It's great now the US admin has finally learnt that it cant flex its military muscle after having its ass kicked numerous times. Viva la peace!
And notice,I separate American individuals from the US elite ruling class. Were not all generalizing fools and crude identitarians!
History is a lie agreed upon.

the situation is beyond peaceful repair that I am sure of, we tried a few months ago to peacefully change anything, and failed miserably,
Honestly we're kind of left between two evils as tim said, I personally am not a fan of the US at all, but I would chose them over Iran,
and thats our situation, we're left to choose or die crying

I think that when you investigate how power functions, the types of narratives that @tim wood is peddling start to fall apart. I think it is due to a lack of appreciation for how oppressive power can be, how centralised it can be and well, pretty much always is. Perhaps within some childish view of democracy, an American can see themselves as part of the winning team but within the middle east, we're talking theocracies, dictatorships and monarchies, it is really astonishing to listen to people who give power and responsibility to groups that include all various components of society - like racial groups or as citizens of a nation, or just people who live in the region!

@Augustusea Personally both the US and Iran have vested interests. It's up to you who you prefer. The Iraqi ruling elites have vested interests for power. Iraq is majority Shia and has been through a lot. I hope the situation improves,but I know many Iraqis are just getting on with their lives. Waiting for political leaders is a losing game. Life in Palestine still goes on.
Political leaders want you to feel powerless so you vote for
and support them.

really our elections are corrupt beyond belief, it wouldnt matter if we vote or not the votes get burnt lol, learnt that last time i voted
so truly we only have either violent civil war or ask for international help, both sound horrendous

@Judaka I agree. Power is always oppressive and wielded by wealthy elites. That is what govt is!
Yep,it is astonishing when people judge a person purely by the politics or "history " of the country they live in.
I'm sure timmy takes full responsibility for the US handling of the covid situation in the US.
As for those Germans,well "history shows" they are imperialists...

@Augustusea. Oh,I wasnt saying to vote. I dont doubt a lot of corruption goes on. I'm saying dont wait for political
solutions just live your life without getting involved in the shenanigans. What is the situation where you live?

in Iraq, we tried peaceful protests for like 6 months, got many good people killed and gained jack shit, no other government is willing to support us just enslave us, only civil war is left really or a coup