Does Santa Drive A Helicopter?
  • creativesoul
    12k
    This thread is the result of another poster's addition to a thread about something completely different, but I suspect some very interesting discussion could result. It eventually boils down to the question of whether or not Santa exists, and/or exactly how so, or in what sense, or way?

    For myself, I'm leaning strongly towards an emphatic "No! Santa does not drive a helicopter" in addition to an equally emphatic...

    Santa Claus is a very well-known character in a story that has long since transcended the original storyteller. In doing so, the meaning of the story has evolved accordingly by virtue of retaining, losing, and gaining meaning during each re-telling. In that story, Santa Claus does not fly around in a helicopter delivering toys on Christmas Eve... not yet anyway.

    That which does not exist cannot change. Santa has. Santa exists and does not fly around in a helicopter.

    :eyes:
    creativesoul Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    No takers?

    Surely someone here would argue that Santa Claus does not exist.
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    Couldn't you write a kid's story in which the reindeer have to socially isolate, and hence can't be put in harness, forcing Sant to us a helicopter?

    That which does not exist cannot change. — creativesoul

    That's not so.
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    That which does not exist cannot change.
    — creativesoul

    That's not so.     — Banno

    Elaborate?
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪creativesoul
    Well, Santa started using a helicopter...
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    So things that do not exist drive helicopters?
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪creativesoul
    Yep. Helicopters that also do not exist.
    Banno Options
  • Gregory
    4.7k
    ↪creativesoul


    I would think that things come from potential to actual. Some call potential nothing. Maybe it's kind of a hybrid of something and nothing, and something falls away from the nothing and walla a big bang
    Gregory Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    ↪Banno


    Is that a modus tollens?
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪Gregory
    There's a potential Santa?
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    ↪Banno


    Does the story exist? If the story exists, and Santa is a part of that story, then...

    Help me out here.

    How does something that does not exist... change?
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪creativesoul

    It's more about domains of discourse. Look to the contexts.
    Banno Options
  • Gregory
    4.7k
    ↪Banno


    Santa lives at least with vegetable level life in many peoples psyches. I don't know exactly how potential becomes actual
    Gregory Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    Santa lives at least with vegetable level life in many peoples psyches. — Gregory

    That looks a bit off to my eye. Can I have some Santa seedlings?
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    It's more about domains of discourse. Look to the contexts. — Banno

    Domains of discourse?

    Care to flesh it out a bit?

    Do they exist?
    creativesoul Options
  • Gregory
    4.7k
    I meant "vegetable" in the sense that Augustine said a child is in a vegetable state in the first trimester . Santa can't grow beyond that in our consciousness, neither can God or Krishna. At least not from that route
    Gregory Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪Gregory
    That's just too far off centre for me to consider. Modality looks a much more productive approach.
    Banno Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    Do they exist? — creativesoul

    You are having a lend.
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    ↪Banno


    Not following...

    How does something that does not exist... change?
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪creativesoul
    But I gave you the helicopter example.

    Like that.
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    So, things that do not exist change by virtue of doing things with other things that do not exist?
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪creativesoul


    Not quite.

    If you asked Santa if Rudolf exists, what would be his answer?
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    Can't ask Santa a question. He is a character in a story.
    creativesoul Options
  • Gregory
    4.7k
    When I hear songs like Christmas Memories, I know for sure the past exists. But at the same time I know for a fact that only the present exists. I don't struggle with this paradox. I lot of people say on this forum that something either exists or it doesnt. Ive been looking at this thread from a Jungian Heidegarrian angle and I am not sure being is discreetly one way
    Gregory Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪creativesoul


    I learned a new word today: Pettifogger.

    Suppose one of the elves, taking a metaphysical turn, asked Santa if Rudolf exists...
    Banno Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪Gregory
    That's better. I can go along with that.
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    ↪Banno


    I just thought the aspect of change was interesting.

    It seemed common sense to me. Something that does not exist cannot change. You've simply taken the opposing view that something that does not exist can change.

    We are both faced with explaining what that change amounts to and/or consists in. As a result, it seems to me that Santa exists, as a character in a story, and stories change...

    For you however... I'm left wondering.

    Domains of discourse...

    Could you explain how invoking them helps out?
    creativesoul Options
  • Banno
    25.3k
    ↪creativesoul
    The story about Santa is a domain of discourse.

    To be is to be the subject of a predicate.

    Predicates are predicated inside stories.

    Predicates are predicated inside domains of discourse.
    Banno Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    ↪Banno


    That's seems closer to what I'm arguing. How do you arrive at Santa does not exist from that?
    creativesoul Options
  • creativesoul
    12k
    Not sure how to take the "pettifogger" comment.

    Talk of existing and/or existence is fraught, perhaps?
    creativesoul Options
  • Gregory
    4.7k
    Does red exist? Only kinda
    Gregory Options
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