I believe what is truly good for the individual is also good for the whole. — Tzeentch
Loving is the act of using - and being used - as an object by another selfish individual other than yours; — Gus Lamarch
[...] that the other is not and cannot be part of what makes you unique and be able to deal with that fact. — Gus Lamarch
So, you are denying the reality of that which I described in my previous post, yes? — javra
What makes you you? The you of four minutes past was a unique constituency (be it of givens such as intentions and percepts or of brain and bodily states, take your pick if needed) that is not the same you of the present moment. Yet you are the same, quote-unquote, unique you. How so? — javra
Egoism is the nature of humanity. — Gus Lamarch
This person's act of selfishness was to focus only on what he needed at the moment, now, having realized his needs - in a way - that person could very well be an empathic, charitable, kind person, but only because he can and not because it's the rule. — Gus Lamarch
My point of view was not born through memes, but through a research base in existentialist philosophies. — Gus Lamarch
This is still a one sided reading of the story. A complex adaptive system like a society is the product of a local~global dynamic. Nature harnesses the complementary forces of competition and cooperation to strike balances. — apokrisis
Not science but the meme factory of Romanticism. — apokrisis
Yes. Love is too, an act of egoism. — Gus Lamarch
I can be a different person with each passing second, however, the death of my cells and the creation of new ones does not negate the fact that my "I" is the only one to witness these changes. — Gus Lamarch
No other being in existence can feel, and experience my existence in transition through time. — Gus Lamarch
The point is that you cannot be the cat, or the tree, or the street, but only yourself. I can't feel what you're feeling, as you can't feel what I'm feeling right now. From your point of view, the world spins around you, as it does to me. — Gus Lamarch
You can feel what I'm feeling. Irritation, maybe annoyance that you are dodging people's responses instead of confronting them. I can feel what you're feeling. Smug satisfaction, a little perverse joy that all these suckers have taken the bait and are responding to you at all. You are correct that your motivation is extremely selfish, but the reason the rest of us are responding is exactly because we are not solely motivated by selfishness. — Pro Hominem
You are ignoring the fact that I have already stated that all this dynamic that creates the organism of society is based on the human nature of wanting to be fulfilled individually - selfishness -. — Gus Lamarch
It is complicated to debate when people already come with the purpose of disagreeing. Not enough, they resort to verbal aggression tactics. I expected nothing less to speak the truth. — Gus Lamarch
So, the more one loves, the more egoistic one becomes? — javra
You are a different person, a different "I", with each miliisecond as well. But this does not address why or how you nevertheless remain the same person, the same "I", throughout. Not such if you're understanding what I'm here addressing, so I'll drop it for the time being. — javra
Not when it comes to many of the details regarding these experiences, but these details can well be argued accidental and not essential to that which is you (as an "I") through time. When it, for example, comes to things such as belief that cats are termed cats in English, or to the very experiencing of being as a being, we both feel/experience the exact same thing. In the latter two cases, my experiences are identical to yours, and yours to mine. No uniqueness whatsoever. Uniqueness only presents itself in the differences, which then divide, or ration, or give boundary to, some given from some other. — javra
Thank you for the honest reply. — javra
But you are making claims about the nature of societies that don’t fit the facts. It is essential to a complex system that it optimises a balance of the selfish and the cooperative.
So to the degree that we egocentrically make society, we have to be skilled at striking this particular balance. — apokrisis
But to say we are unselfish for selfish reasons becomes a rather contorted description of what is going on — apokrisis
Hah. Yes life is complicated like that. Intellectual discussions are dialectical as every thesis presents its antithesis.
One can either stick rigidly to one’s precepts or follow that two sided flow of ideas to discover where it goes. — apokrisis
But the balance only exists and is created by our egoistic wills. — Gus Lamarch
The problem is when the lack of respect becomes present. — Gus Lamarch
psychological science. — apokrisis
except in literary sources? — apokrisis
I guess it is consistent with your egoism that you would want respect? That you could demand it rather than earn it? — apokrisis
Sorry. I respect arguments clearly put and backed up by suitable evidence. I was interested to see if you could mount a more spirited defence. That hasn't happened. So we can move on. — apokrisis
The development of the feeling of love for a being other than yours, the egoism- here, referring it only to the love for another person - grows and gets stronger and stronger - if it is an exemplary relationship, something utopian, of course -. And it is to be believed that your partner also has his selfishness exacerbated if he feels in the same dose as you. — Gus Lamarch
Your perception remains the same through the movement through time. You - here understand as your ego, conscience, individuality - remains you intact through the change of "form". You do not have lapses of mileseconds of different personalities, ways of being, etc ... because time passes and with it you change, no, what makes you an "I" remains fixed. — Gus Lamarch
The point is that there is no scientific, philosophical, theoretical, etc ... evidence that you - your self - can somehow come and take my place in space within the Universe. — Gus Lamarch
I thank you for taking the time to debate with me respectfully. — Gus Lamarch
And what philosophy, deep down, is nothing more than a mere internal projection to others? — Gus Lamarch
The cynicism and lack of respect here is really impressive. Have a nice day / good night — Gus Lamarch
Does one willfully sacrifice one’s being out of an interest to optimally preserve the very same being one sacrifices? — javra
And if our experienced understanding of tree were to in fact be completely unique to each of us, we could not then be referencing the same thing by this empirically apprehended term. — javra
It's about discovering a higher truth for yourself, granted usually with a purpose of helping others, if not just people you deem worthy. — Outlander
The person in question that would sacrifice itself could have been "rightful" on his motives to do it - as being certain that he was doing something that was not egoist - but in the end - unconsciously - the only motive for his actions was one of egoism - maybe eternalizing his person forever to the one saved? Maybe to righ something he had done wrong for someone that the person he was saving knew, etc... the possibilities are endless -. — Gus Lamarch
Understand: - I am not saying that people cannot or should not be altruistic, empathetic, humble, etc ... I am just saying that indirectly, these same actions are the result of the individual's selfish will, even if they do not know that and are acting as if they were virtuous, and seen by society as good people. — Gus Lamarch
We could say that through the term "tree" we would both be talking about the same concept - a tree - and the same object - the tree itself, as being in the universe - however that would be pure speculation by comparison. — Gus Lamarch
Or one could sacrifice one's ego for the benefit of a whole of which one's ego is but one constituent of. Some soldiers have been known to do this. Sometime for love of one's country. Sometime for the love of some ideal, such as that of democracy. The ego here holds part of its identity as that which inheres into something greater than itself ... and can willfully sacrifice its own life for it. — javra
I'm not yet certain, but, from one vantage, I think I can get what you mean. As egos we are at the center of the world we experience. Hence, your use of the term "egocentrism". Even so, altruism, empathy, humility are commonly described as selfless endeavors. This being shorthand for "less selfish than those endeavors that are the opposite" or something to the like. — javra
There's a difference between, for example, being empathetic and pretending to be. The first is deemed to be a virtue in most cases, the second not. The first is commonly deemed a selfless endeavor, the second a selfish endeavor. — javra
selfishness is an accurate description of what you want to present? — javra
To me, and doubtless to many others, your use of selfish to describe things such as altruism and empathy makes no sense. Selfishness describes the opposite of these things. — javra
There is nothing wrong with being an unconscious selfish, I just think that if you became aware of that fact, and accepted your nature, you would be a better person. — Gus Lamarch
There we got to another point that I don't know if this discussion would be the right place, but it is the fact that selfishness had been a virtue that we - humans - have distorted so much to the point of becoming a concept seen as evil. It is a good start to have discussed with me and to let yourself try to understand what I say. Many here do not try to do it. — Gus Lamarch
OK. So how do you find that everyone’s increased selfishness will lead to improved conditions for selves? — javra
Please don’t misunderstand. Trying to better understand your point of view does not equate to me agreeing with it. — javra
Are you guys absolutely sure you do not dodge the fact that some people are extrovert and some introvert? — Ansiktsburk
You are poor, or even miserable; empathy, humbleness, and other of these "virtues" would not help you out of this state at all. — Gus Lamarch
And what philosophy, deep down, is nothing more than a mere internal projection to others? — Gus Lamarch
(Btw pretty new in this forum - how to inlude the text you want to reply to? Normally, forums do inlude that text automatically) — Ansiktsburk
You are poor, or even miserable; empathy, humbleness, and other of these "virtues" would not help you out of this state at all. What would benefit you most would be the act of focusing on yourself, getting a job — Gus Lamarch
If everyone was concerned with resolving only their lives, their personal, individual interests, they would gradually change the whole of society. — Gus Lamarch
I, again affirm: - There is no way in reality that you could feel, perceive, live, etc ... as someone else, just compare your experiences and accept - in a way - that both are equal, however, nothing can be me except me. Individuality - or the ego, as I put it - is born and dies with its own. — Gus Lamarch
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