Moral instruction can be distasteful when the values+perspectives attempting to be imputed go against something in you, yeah. Which of your experiences does the concept of "privilege" go against? — fdrake
Can't you see that this is the same mechanism that religions use to indoctrinate people... because they are stupid and can't be trusted to make up their own minds? — ChatteringMonkey
but because it assumes that i'm in need of moral instruction in the first place — ChatteringMonkey
What about sexism is that also based on oppression? Or specism, classism, ageism, or really any of the isms which refer to discrimination based on identity? — Judaka
Also, when you say most common, where is it the most common? Do all dictionaries define it as you do? What authority defines it only as you do that makes it a question of ignorance for me to not share yours? — Judaka
It's just not what word means, like we know what the word table means and when and where it is applicable. — ChatteringMonkey
an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich: — Cambridge
a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor — Merriam-Webster
If you're upsetting a group of people that share the same skin color, then does that not qualify as oppressing them?Yes, of course. As I thought I'd made clear in my previous post, no one cares about trivial attribution errors. Racism is about the oppression of people by attributing racial generalisations. It is not just attributing racial generalisations. — Isaac
Apologies if I'm shortchanging you by not responding fully, but it feels like I would just be retreading what I've already said. — Pro Hominem
I noted the lack of presence of a black voice, or of a disabled voice, or of a gay voice. — Banno
No, I disagree with you. I think that your position is inherently controversial and inconsistent. First, you acknowledge the existence of institutional racism. The notion implies the institutional, systemic discrimination of a particular group of people. They are targeted and singled out as a specific community of colour.It seemed liked you almost agreed with me in a way here, but don't worry, I won't tell anyone. :D — Pro Hominem
My dictionary has 'privilege' meaning
an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich:
— Cambridge
a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor
— Merriam-Webster
I'm struggling to see how it is so obvious that its use in 'white privilege' is "just not what word means". Its meaning seems quite congruent to me, it's saying that freedom from certain types of oppression and restriction, the opening of certain opportunities is an advantage which white people have.
Being able to go about one's daily business with a lower chance of being arrested or shot by your own police force in certain parts of America is an advantage afforded to white people simply because they're white is it not?
That's right there in the dictionary definition. I'm not sure what your objection on semantic grounds is. — Isaac
↪ChatteringMonkey
So the concept of privilege isn't contrary to any of your experiences. You simply feel it is patronising. — fdrake
Can't you see that this is the same mechanism that religions use to indoctrinate people... because they are stupid and can't be trusted to make up their own minds?
— ChatteringMonkey
So focus on the facts: do you find anything factually wrong with what material conditions accounts using the concept seeks to highlight? Privileges of able body and mind, race+ethnicity, income, gender... — fdrake
but because it assumes that i'm in need of moral instruction in the first place
— ChatteringMonkey
I'm sorry that the idea that other people may be able to teach you things that have a shot of making the world, and you, better offends you so much. Are we so different that you only believe what you believe based on reason and no sentiment is involved? I doubt it, we are talking about your personal feelings of offence, not about the realities associated with privilege. — fdrake
Are we not literally talking about that exact issue with the term 'privilege'? — Isaac
White privilege is the direct, demonstrable, and inevitable result of systemic and/or institutional racism. Put simply, it is what white people do not have to deal with on a daily basis that non whites do. It is the injury because one is non white that white people avoid suffering because they are not.
— creativesoul
↪Pro Hominem
That's it.
:smile:
— creativesoul
Ok, I understand what you are saying. I believe that the effect you are describing is real. Please keep that in mind - I am not saying that the effects of what you are describing don't exist.
Here are my concerns:
1. I see this as inexact. Specifically overbroad. It assumes that the experiences of all white people are more or less the same, it assumes that the experiences of all non-white people are more or less the same, and it assumes that the experiences of whites and non-whites are mutually exclusive - one cannot have the experience of the other. I think that individual experiences of racial prejudice are usually much more specific than this - one is mistreated for being black, or latin, or asian, etc - as opposed to the generalization of non-white. But that is in the realm of individual racism. In terms of systemic oppression, I think it is far more complicated than this model, which glaringly excludes economic factors and ignores that on the broadest scale, race is simply a tool of the oppression, not its object. — Pro Hominem
...This statement is in itself racist, and supports a racially derived view of the world. I mean racist here in the sense of prioritizing race above all other factors... — Pro Hominem
...It's a hard sell... — Pro Hominem
"White privilege" when used in the best way, puts a white in the shoes of non whites...
Is that what's meant - or close at least - to perspective-taking?
— creativesoul
In strict logical terms, however, this is a fallacy - appeal to emotion (pity). I would also note that this type of argument is explicitly forbidden in legal proceedings because it is so often misleading and prejudicial.
I will admit that in ordinary social settings it can be persuasive, but it is still a play on the person's emotions, and not an appeal to their reason. If all you're trying to do is indoctrinate someone, it can work, but that person won't be able to effectively articulate their beliefs without further education. This is basically what Fox News spends all its time doing. — Pro Hominem
What I find sad is that creativesoul argues that the white privilege framing is necessary to understand racism, meanwhile, it is the foundation for your discrimination. I am very interested creativesoul what do you think about Banno's comments, is this something you support? — Judaka
If a white person disagrees with the white privilege framing, is it fair to characterise them as "begging for the term not to be used because it offends them" regardless of what they say? — Judaka
I have not much interest in continuing a conversation. — Judaka
Using the term "white privilege" doesn't give you a monopoly over opposition towards racism, you realise that right? — Judaka
There is no use trying to tell me "oh, didn't you realise this happens to non-whites, now you're finally beginning to understand" don't be deluded. I condemn it regardless of the skin colour of the person who does it and regardless of the skin colour it's being done to. — Judaka
Banno is openly discriminating against white people using his prejudices and you're cool with it. — Judaka
The interpretative relevance of race is something to be maintained, the individual is to be understood through their identity.
Leftist identity politics just helps explain why certain people are so focused on race/sex/sexual orientation. Why the oppressor/victim narrative so central to understanding history for certain people. To understand the rules followed by certain people about how you can/should talk to or talk about someone from a "marginalised group". If you wrongly think that someone is coming to these conclusions on their own, by thinking honestly, then you miss the point. It's ideological possession, how else can you describe it? It is not natural for thinkers to have such similarities and such focuses in such specific contexts.
The white privilege framing starts to make sense when you buy into these narratives... — Judaka
I mean you can't even be racist to white people so what is the problem. — Judaka
Anyway, I don't think I've made any progress with you since my first comments, we're back to "omg, you don't realise there's racism?!" I was interested to see if you actually applied what you preached but besides seeing you don't, I have not much interest in continuing a conversation. — Judaka
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