Is there any way it would be enough for me to simply say you are completely incorrect? Could you then engage my perfectly rational arguments without having to resort to ad hominem projections? Or are you going to demand my bona fides and waste a lot of time before we get back to the actual point of the conversation, which is the general poverty of the term white privilege as a tool to help end racism? — Pro Hominem
do you have the impression that I am made personally uncomfortable by the term
Apologies if I'm shortchanging you by not responding fully, but it feels like I would just be retreading what I've already said. — Pro Hominem
fdrake is just doing exactly what makes the criticism of the framing correct, by showing that those who see the world through it, are in fact most prone to race-based discrimination. How can something producing such an effect possibly counter racism? — Judaka
(7) White privilege being used to discriminate against the "white" experience and characterising white success in light of their advantages
(8) The privilege framing having an effect on causing things such as "white guilt", shame and so on. — Judaka
Racist = uses racial categories in arguments = can think about people in terms of races.
I put it to you that there is no way to talk about racism and not be racist under that series of equivocations.
...So long as there are social+economic dynamics that are strongly determined by race, race will remain a useful analytic category. It's a shitty thing to have to make sense of some things on those terms, but those are the breaks. — fdrake
whites are at comparable risks to PoCs for police violence in poor communities, PoCs are at higher risk everywhere else. It's not just a class thing. — fdrake
Oh, you got me. I was pretty lazy in my responses to Pro Hominem - writing them as I did while being a bald white wearing a black t-shirt. If I put a bit more effort in and wore the steel-toed black boots as well that would've deffo upped my White Power creds. — fdrake
The provocative remark that I'm "more prone to race-based discrimination" based on my support for the term "white privilege" is mostly unsubstantiated - do you really expect people who use the term to be more racist than people who do not use the term? — fdrake
The only way I see that this makes sense is the series of equivocations:
Racist = uses racial categories in arguments = can think about people in terms of races. — fdrake
You want to be very careful about giving validity to the idea that you can use statistics, anecdotes, feelings about a race to inform yourself about or characterise an individual. Because it may even be true that white people are more likely to dislike the white privilege framing for bad reasons but once you start using that to characterise disagreement with the framing as a result of their race, you aren't really much different or really any different from what you're supposedly condemning. — Judaka
...we listen to a person with a name, a story, a personality, someone was trying to live their life and had to deal with injustice because of a stupid reason like racism. — Judaka
Actually the "white privilege" narrative doesn't only not help people to know how to change things, it instructs them on how to make things worse. It reinforces the importance of race, legitimises prejudice, leaves people to figure out the causes, characterises an injustice as a privilege for whatever reason.
I'm really excited to see a thread here about "challenging the mass incarceration", I think, that's something I want to see done, I am a huge supporter. It's so much better than reading about "white privilege" which is a totally useless conversation about characterisations, framing, interpretations, narrative and just a lot of not-actually-doing-anything useless bullshit. — Judaka
...white privilege is the argument that "you, white person, are privileged" — Judaka
And you do all this without placing importance upon the color of their skin too? — creativesoul
You're making less and less sense as we go along. Focusing upon economic redistribution will not correct mass incarceration of blacks. — creativesoul
Strawman. — creativesoul
You're the only one returning over and over to focus upon characterizations, framing, interpretations, and narratives... I would love to talk about actual events. You seem to want to avoid them. — creativesoul
I am just pointing out that white privilege is a distraction that detracts from real issues. — Judaka
You're making less and less sense as we go along. Focusing upon economic redistribution will not correct mass incarceration of blacks.
— creativesoul
I didn't draw a connection between those two things. — Judaka
...a totally useless conversation about characterisations, framing, interpretations, narrative... — Judaka
You're the only one returning over and over to focus upon characterizations, framing, interpretations, and narratives... I would love to talk about actual events. You seem to want to avoid them.
— creativesoul
I am not saying I want people to talk about the actual events in this thread, which is about the white privilege framing. I am just pointing out that white privilege is a distraction that detracts from real issues. — Judaka
What? — Judaka
I couldn't possibly substantiate my claim, it's anecdotal and a weak claim but I certainly believe it is more likely that a person who uses the term white privilege to be more prone to making assumptions based on race. — Judaka
Apparently defining racism is a controversial topic in this thread, what is your definition of racism? Isaac claims that it requires oppression, while I would say any race-based discrimination is racism, that's the definition I'm working on. — Judaka
There are many reasons I think people who like the term white privilege are more likely to be racist but the main one is simply that the term is very race-orientated. It calls out being white in the US as a privilege and what I see people doing is using the idea of white privilege to presume the privilege of somebody who is white. Which gives you a lot to work with, a lot of assumptions that you can make about someone simply for being white. — Judaka
What is important was the discrimination they were subjected to rather than the colour of their skin. That's all we're trying to learn about. Of course, their skin colour made it possible but skin colour shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be perpetrator (cause) and victim. — Judaka
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