If they never actually stipulated what white privilege is then how can anyone agree or disagree with it? It doesn't follow that you could agree with it, as it is just as possible to disagree with it. All you are doing is putting words in their mouth so that you might agree with them or not.What I find interesting about creativesoul's definition of white privilege is that he never actually stipulates what white privilege is insofar as actual statistics or concerns. Which means that you can agree with him regardless of whether you think white privilege is a tiny, insignificant benefit or something of dramatic importance. — Judaka
If the statistics I showed supports what creativesoul said - that blacks can be racist and act on improperly ill-conceived notions, then why didn't creativesoul acknowledge that? This wouldn't be the first time that creativesoul agreed with someone from his side and disagreed with me even though I said the same thing. It's because they already have this preconceived notion about me and anything I say is wrong, even though it's what they said, or someone else said and they agreed with. It has become a waste of time to read anything that creativesoul writes because they are so inconsistent.He also doesn't stipulate that someone who benefits from white privilege is never going to run into problems as a result of their whiteness. He actually specifically mentions how white privilege can be used to be anti-white and he condemns that - he is not denying racism towards whiteness exists.
Quite frankly, you have only ever introduced statistics which support your argument. Where have you given a balanced account of this topic? Isn't this simply hypocrisy? — Judaka
What are you saying, that nothing has changed since the civil rights era? You have politicians like Biden making the same promises that they have been making for nearly 50 years, and blacks are still voting for them. It severely limits the power of your argument that white privilege is still a problem when they vote for the same people that are part of the problem. It makes it obvious that you aren't interested in justice, rather you are interested in pushing an agenda.Black-on-black crime, black American distrust of police, examples of rich black Americans subverting expectations, these were all true well back into the civil rights era. — Judaka
If they never actually stipulated what white privilege is then how can anyone agree or disagree with it? — Harry Hindu
This is just more examples of how yours and creativesoul's political arguments are like those made by the fundamentally religious. — Harry Hindu
If the statistics I showed supports what creativesoul said - that blacks can be racist and act on improperly ill-conceived notions, then why didn't creativesoul acknowledge that? — Harry Hindu
If they feel like non whites are attacking them personally because of the fact that they are white, it is very hard to convince them that those non whites are not racist, regardless of whether or not they actually are.
Such frameworks using white privilege do not promote the kind of cohesion that's necessary for ending racism. It does little to create solidarity between people of different races to stand up and fight for one another. In fact, it can have quite the opposite affect/effect. It can lessen the desire to stand up for and fight alongside those who suffer from racism, because it ends up feeling like those people are fighting against the white individual because they are white. — creativesoul
And, I haven't provided only stats. I provided thought-experiments and asked questions about it, none of which were addressed. — Harry Hindu
It's about how the idea of systemic racism is exaggerated for racist purposes and how the idea can snowball and cause black men to be resistant to cops that aren't being racist, which can then result in them being shot and the non-racist cop is accused of being racist. — Harry Hindu
What are you saying, that nothing has changed since the civil rights era? — Harry Hindu
It severely limits the power of your argument that white privilege is still a problem when they vote for the same people that are part of the problem. It makes it obvious that you aren't interested in justice, rather you are interested in pushing an agenda. — Harry Hindu
What about the high rate of broken families and absent fathers in the black community? — Harry Hindu
All you are doing is putting words in their mouth... — Harry Hindu
It has become a waste of time to read anything that creativesoul writes because they are so inconsistent. — Harry Hindu
I'm going to try this again. You both claim:
1. White Americans do not benefit from systemic racism in the United States.
Perhaps my usage of "systemic racism" is nonstandard, but I take it to refer to things like the Black-white wealth gap:
In 2016, white families had the highest level of both median and mean family wealth: $171,000 and $933,700, respectively (figure 1). Black and Hispanic families have considerably less wealth than white families. Black families' median and mean net worth is less than 15 percent that of white families, at $17,600 and $138,200, respectively. Hispanic families' median and mean net worth was $20,700 and $191,200, respectively.
— The Federal Reserve
In American society, as currently constituted, whites have one hell of a lot more money than Blacks!
You can support (1) by also claiming:
2. A white household with a net worth of $171,000 derives no benefit from a Black household having a net worth of only $17,600.
The total wealth of Americans is not a fixed number to be carved up like a pie; white households don't have higher net worth because non-white households have lower net worth. If it counts as evidence that our system is racist, it's not because there is white benefit here, but because there is non-white deprivation. — Srap Tasmaner
You understand that in the last paragraph of mine you quoted I was speaking for the position I intended to refute in the paragraphs right after that, yes? — Srap Tasmaner
Also "blanket" is kind of a weasel word. Statistics don't show, don't expect to show, that every white household has more money than every black household.
Also this post is not about what I would call "white privilege" but about systemic racism. — Srap Tasmaner
On the other hand, I think there are interesting things to say about positions of dominance people are unaware they hold. When I see a young man and a young woman at a coffee shop and the guy is talking 90% of the time, I think, "I used to be that asshat." (And there's data on speaking time in conversations between men and women.) I think that kind of thing is worth knowing about for so many reasons. — Srap Tasmaner
↪Pro Hominem
I'm good with that. We agree on so much, I think the remaining differences are mostly semantic. If I have new thoughts I'll come back to this.
It was a good discussion and I look forward to seeing you elsewhere on the forum. — Srap Tasmaner
Even if it means blinding oneself to reality because it's more comfortable that way. — StreetlightX
O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An foolish notion:
What airs in dress an gait wad lea'es us,
An ev'n devotion!
The question that interests me is, what part of the way others see me that differs from the way I see myself -- a difference I'm not even aware of -- is down to my race? What part of my behavior is enabled and encouraged (note) by awareness, on the part of others, of my race, when my race is the furthest thing from my mind? — Srap Tasmaner
3. "membership" - this is semantic, I'll grant, but doesn't this word imply awareness? Do we typically describe people as being members of something without their knowledge? Is it even appropriately applied in a circumstance where one cannot opt out of membership? I feel that there are problems of attribution here arising from oversimplifying something complex. — Pro Hominem
the terms of economics, which are far more 'controllable', far more amenable to intellectual grappling than the sheer irrationality of being treated like a subhuman - and conversely, a proper human - because of a contingency of melanin. — StreetlightX
If you want an awareness neutral concept of membership, think of it is set membership - you belong in a group whether you like it or not — fdrake
Thus, you may ascribe "white membership" to me, but I do not accept it, nor do I wish to define myself or anyone else this way. — Pro Hominem
This is, in simple point of fact, racism. The conjuring of race as a concept, followed by the distribution of all people according to this manufactured set of categories. — Pro Hominem
I denounce this. It is not necessary to view the world in this way. I can acknowledge that people do hold this view, but I reject it and I push for everyone else to reject it as well. — Pro Hominem
Thus, you may ascribe "white membership" to me, but I do not accept it, nor do I wish to define myself or anyone else this way. — Pro Hominem
If you're white or black, you're white or black whether you accept it or not. Those are the breaks. That is the social fact of racialisation. — fdrake
It's really not that simple. If someone is 1/8 black are they black or white? Who is society to deny their blackness? Who is society to tell, say, Ashkenazi Jews, that they are "really" white? — BitconnectCarlos
This looks like a deflection. You seem to fully understand racialisation as a societal mechanism (people are sorted into racial categories by skin colour blah blah blah) and now apparently me pointing out that this happens regardless of individuals' choices to identify as a race member is a racist act — fdrake
I still think it's a social fact that people are racialised. That's what I'm pointing out. The lack of scientific basis for sorting people into races biologically and blah blah is something much different. — fdrake
If you're white or black, you're white or black whether you accept it or not. Those are the breaks. That is the social fact of racialisation. If you are uncomfortable with being seen as your race... Welcome to the racial binning process, please enjoy your stay — fdrake
We all lack some awareness of how we affect others... But then there's lack of awareness of the society you're a part of — Srap Tasmaner
Once you've done that, don't be afraid to counter people using race-based language - make a point to say that "race doesn't really exist". Learn the science and history to support that statement. Truly adopt that belief. Realize that change takes time, but remain persistent. After all, if you aren't willing to do any of this, how can you expect anyone else to? — Pro Hominem
Their experience of race - or lack thereof - is so far removed from any reality — StreetlightX
A: "Black children are 5 times more likely to drown in swimming pools"
B: "You are aware race doesn't really exist, right?"
vs
A: (car fails to start) "These parts are Jewish!"
B: "You are aware race doesn't really exist, right?"
I imagine you imagine you are doing the latter. From my perspective, it looks like you are doing the former. I draw that conclusion because you are being hostile to the concept of race in a discussion regarding a critical concept used to highlight racial disparities rooted in discrimination. Surely the difference between the two is obvious to you. — fdrake
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