“Drugs” is exactly the metaphor I thought of. I’ve gone my whole life without succumbing to the temptation to just drug myself into blissful oblivion. More recently when it’s become clear that a lot of my mental anguish is not all circumstantial (from outside events) but coming from within myself, I’ve hesitantly tested small doses of (prescription) drugs to help pull me over to functionally good-feeling instead of cripplingly bad-feeling. The dial (not button for me) sounds like a more direct version of the same principle, and if I can resist the temptation to become a junkie I’m pretty confident I could resist the temptation to turn the dial up more than a trickle.

if I can resist the temptation to become a junkie I’m pretty confident I could resist the temptation to turn the dial up more than a trickle — Pfhorrest

It helps, when avoiding a deadly spiral into drug addiction, that drugs are not easily or legally procured.

Maybe it helps some people. Most people I know have no trouble getting the drugs of their choice and no hesitation to offer them to me. Hasn’t made it any harder to say “no thanks”.

It helps, when avoiding a deadly spiral into drug addiction, that drugs are not easily or legally procured. — Kenosha Kid

Mostly agree but not with the legally procured part. There are a handful of chronic pain issues I could claim I have that a Dr can't reliably test for, opiates can be legally prescribed and in some cases are directly pushed onto patients who would do better with other pain management therapies.

If the button would give relief to someone suffering from bone cancer, then yes; the rest, maybe not. — jorndoe

My thinking exactly. End of life care or treatment resistant pain issues would be fine so long as there are a panel of professionals making decisions on it.

What about Mental health issues? Depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation etc

What about Mental health issues? Depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation etc — MSC

That’s the kind of thing I was thinking of.

If it can be made so that just existing at all in and if itself feels like at least a slight net positive, regardless of what else is going on, then it seems that that would go a huge way toward relieving anxiety, depression, and existential dread.

That’s the kind of thing I was thinking of.

If it can be made so that just existing at all in and if itself feels like at least a slight net positive, regardless of what else is going on, then it seems that that would go a huge way toward relieving anxiety, depression, and existential dread. — Pfhorrest

I agree to an extent in terms of if these mental health conditions are treatment resistant by way of traditional methods.

It's important to weigh up the risks between say an orally taken SSRI vs a procedure to have the dial/button installed.

No procedure is without risk and brain invasive procedures usually carry the most risk. A slip up on the part of the medical professional carrying out the procedure could leave you in a vegetative state or potentially damage ones ability to feel any positive emotions at all. This would also be a factor in if a patient whom the implant works for wishes to discontinue treatment as the procedure to remove the device would carry the same risks as implementing it in the first place.

Then you have the issue of neurological diversity and the assumption that the device would be a success for everyone.

Then we have other brain abnormalities and the dangers surrounding them. For example people without the capacity to feel pain are in danger of not knowing whether or not something is wrong with them. What that may mean is that a patient themselves who has the implant could potentially mismanage pain related to a malignant tumour. Masking that problem wouldn't eliminate it and the doctors best early warning symptom of something being wrong is actually your own ability to feel pain.

Yeah I’m thinking of this all as a philosophical thought experiment divorced from the practical details: basically “if you could directly stimulated pleasure centers in your brain would you want that ability?” In actual practice no, I’m not getting brain surgery unless I really need it.

Mostly agree but not with the legally procured part. There are a handful of chronic pain issues I could claim I have that a Dr can't reliably test for, opiates can be legally prescribed and in some cases are directly pushed onto patients who would do better with other pain management therapies. — MSC

Is fraudulent reporting of symptoms to obtain heroin for recreational purposes legal?

I’m thinking of this all as a philosophical thought experiment divorced from the practical details: basically “if you could directly stimulated pleasure centers in your brain would you want that ability?” In actual practice no, I’m not getting brain surgery unless I really need it. — Pfhorrest

That's fair, I'm a pragmatist though so I don't tend to divorce from the practical details as I see them as being relevant to the philosophical thought behind it.

Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger. — Hume

But I don't think he was recommending this as a moral philosophy.

I voted no because I think it would make living less interesting, pleasure less exciting, pain less informative, thus reducing waking life to a soma-induced dream. We might as well throw ourselves in a padded room while we’re at it.

what then is left but just to ENJOY it? — Pfhorrest

Humanity was not made to "enjoy" the result of its achievements. History proves that humanity only flows and grows "during" the procees of development to a goal. When that same goal is achieved, what comes into play? Nihilism, decay, the destruction of everything that took us so long to build, and why? Because we love "purpose", the objective while its not in our hands. The appreciation of your creation is a pleasure reserved only for the divine, the transcedental.

Be my guest, I have a few other terms I use sometimes.

kartrashian
instacrap
yourtube
crapchat

Lots of focus on the crappyness of the people that abuse the internet

And a few other about pains in the butt in general.

Drugs — Pfhorrest

I suppose you're right but from the little experience I've had not all drugs come in the form of pills, syrups, injectables, inhalants. You know what I mean, right?

I suppose you're right but from the little experience I've had not all drugs come in the form of pills, syrups, injectables, inhalants. You know what I mean, right? — TheMadFool

I know you were addressing this to @Pfhorrest but do you mean ideas?

Yeah I actually don't know what @TheMadFool means.

At this point, if he doesn't mean Ideas, I'll be disappointed.

What does equilibrium mean to you? I'm not disagreeing. I do see what you are saying, I don't necessarily want pleasure when I feel pain, I just want the pain to be gone. Just feeling balanced is a worthwhile reprieve from some forms of suffering. The forms of suffering and pain that harm me. So pain in my legs while I am exercising is a good thing and in the long run is beneficial, not harmful. — MSC

You know it, subconsciously or mostly you'd be made aware of it because it's a 'good' feeling. Equilibrium is not just in how we feel, but it is a measurable condition. If you want to be specific and literal, there's vital signs, for your reference. It's hard to articulate what's equilibrium for a person, but you just know it whether you're by yourself or in a crowd. The absence of apprehension, foreboding thoughts, or even loud excitement (in the form of screaming fans in a large concert arena) -- all these are nonexistent in an equilibrated state.

It's interesting when you say, pain is a good thing when you're exercising. Yes, we've learned to welcome bodily pain from workout . But mostly we are not aware that our body is designed to alleviate pain, always trying to bring our state into balance.

However, one thing I observed with many of these comments, is the rather ubiquitous idea that human life needs pain so that we can have the pleasure of overcoming it. I just find this theory lacking in any ethical claim. — schopenhauer1

It's a good thing to be able to overcome pain, but I see your point. Pleasure is not the word we want, to me the word is 'satisfaction'. Normally we don't put ourselves into pain and suffering (I don't mean the kind we get from workout), but we find ourselves in one, and this is simply because we live a human life. ( Yes, I know. Bear with me) We are aware of relationships, and the eventual pain when those relationships disappear, as in death or separation. Experiencing suffering allows another dimension to a life where everything is in order and works like clockwork.

However, one thing I observed with many of these comments, is the rather ubiquitous idea that human life needs pain so that we can have the pleasure of overcoming it. I just find this theory lacking in any ethical claim.
— schopenhauer1

It's a good thing to be able to overcome pain, but I see your point. Pleasure is not the word we want, to me the word is 'satisfaction'. Normally we don't put ourselves into pain and suffering (I don't mean the kind we get from workout), but we find ourselves in one, and this is simply because we live a human life. ( Yes, I know. Bear with me) We are aware of relationships, and the eventual pain when those relationships disappear, as in death or separation. Experiencing suffering allows another dimension to a life where everything is in order and works like clockwork. — Caldwell

@schopenhauer1

Not for nothing, but I suffered some traumas this past week. I couldn't tell you if I deserved the suffering or if it was good for me. I have however noticed an improvement in how I philosophise for it. Take that as you will. So while no pleasure was had, writing leaves me more satisfied.

Not for nothing, but I suffered some traumas this past week. I couldn't tell you if I deserved the suffering or if it was good for me. I have however noticed an improvement in how I philosophise for it. Take that as you will. So while no pleasure was had, writing leaves me more satisfied. — MSC

Thank you for putting what I wanted to say into perspective.

Moderators, MSC directed me to this thread in a discussion we had. I am now interested in your site, and am exploring it. I hope to engage in dialog with the community here. But I also want to continue the dialog with MSC, who I see is now banned on your forum, so we can't talk here. I am hoping to move our discussion elsewhere, and my post referencing phil stack exchange as a venue was a one off.

it only takes a press of this button, in a completely conscious person, to remove it from its virtues and morals, making it become an empty shell. Therefore, the choice must be cut - "No" is the only answer possible -. — Gus Lamarch

I gotta say I honestly don't understand people who think like you. (Not that there's anything bad with thinking like that, I just don't understand them)

Why should one value not being an empty shell more than being happy? What's the point of not being an empty shell if you are not perfectly happy?

The way I see it, being happy is infinitely more important and valuable than being «human» or whatever. I don't think there is anything intrinsically better about not being an empty shell rather than being one, if one gets happiness in the former case.

Maybe one of the answers is based on a prejudice, or maybe both are. Who knows.

But at any rate, is this really all that important? The idea that we could ever build such a button seems completely fantastic, so it's just a hypotetical scenario that probably will never happen.

I remember what my wife said in defense of the button: "If the end goal of this journey is happiness, and that button makes you truly happy, why not do it? Journey complete."
My horrified reaction: "But that's cheating!"

Now, I think that what my wife means by "truly happy" is something different than what the button can produce, which is just raw physical pleasure. — RogueAI

1. What does it matter if it's «cheating» or not? It seems to me like that's unimportant in comparison.

2. I do think that happiness is obtained only from pleasure, as well as from other «good» sensations in the mind (tranquility, peace of mind, joy, etc...) which I assume could be included in «pleasure», for how else would you «feel» happy?

I voted yes obviously because it’s not like I have to press the button. Having the ability to be happy whenever I want to seems to be a pure positive.

This is a 5 month old thread, which was the last time MSC's account was active here too. It's not entirely clear how he directed you here, unless from elsewhere. And if elsewhere, then you can continue whatever conversation you've having there.